How often do you really use your winch?

[Superu]

Black Rat Hand Winch

Let's not forget that carrying a winch need not be the 120 lbs of Warn sitting on your bumper.

Many folks use a hand winch

or hi-lift with snatch blocks to get unstuck. The big electric is faster and is sometimes preferable when the mercury drops down low, but the black rat will get you out eventually just as well.

 

[madizell]

a really *good* stuck seems to often involve the use of some other bit of recovery gear besides the winch. a hi-lift and a set of sand ladders can be quite useful. sometimes dragging the vehicle over the blockage isn't an option. sometimes there just simply isn't a good place to anchor the winchline. I wouldn't become too dependent on it - you still need a good variety of gear to provide options. my .02 -

I own a hi-lift but have never used it to get unstuck (for that matter if I was going to dump equipment I didn't use often, the hi-lift would be the first to go). With a good winch, I have not had a use for the lift. There is always a good place to anchor a winch line if you have a Pull-Pal, which I carry, along with an extra 450 feet in line extensions. I don't use and have no use for sand ladders, thanks. They are hard to store and I have yet to encounter terrain that required them, even in sand dunes and desert, but I also don't use tall skinny tires in sand.

A winch is the single most versatile self-recovery device you can carry.

 

[ujoint]

I've only had my rig stuck twice. The first time, there was another vehicle there to pull me out. The second, I was by myself. Even with the winch, it took me 1.5 hrs to dig & winch myself out. I was glad to have it!!

 

[michaelgroves]

A shovel/ pick/ sand matts are all tools, and all have their uses..

The better prepared you are, both in experience and equipment levels
the shorter time your vehicle will be stuck...

That's the heart of the matter. A well placed, intelligently operated winch can make a recovery that would otherwise take hours, or even days, into a much quicker, easier, safer job.

The more equipment the more extreme recovery's can be completed as per the rollover pictured earlier.

I'd bet there are several people on this forum who have the experience and ingenuity to recover that vehicle without a winch, if necessary. (There are many tools and techniques for pulling ropes without the use of a motor, given time, and as you point out above, many other ways of moving heavy objects!

But I don't doubt that all of those people would prefer to have a winch for the job if given the choice!

 

[michaelgroves]

I have competed in many winch challenge events in the UK, and you obviously need a winch

Agreed!

In India I didn't have one on the Jeep. I thought I could get through but if I did not with all my experience I knew I was two hundred miles from recovery. So discretion proved the better part of valor and to get around we drove over 1000kms. If I had a winch I would probably not have needed it, but it is the what iff's.

I obviously can't comment on that specific decision - you made a judgement call. But for me, it's unlikely a winch itself would be a deciding factor on an expedition, though the overall level of preparedness would be. In truly remote terrain (off-piste in the Sahara, say), a terminal breakdown is a much more likely and dangerous issue than getting stuck. Anywhere with roads/tracks and the occasional other vehicle, it's a matter of choice - is it worth the sweat and few extra hours if you get stuck without a winch? Help is at hand almost everywhere, for stuck or broken, if it's really needed.

 

[michaelgroves]

Charlie's post reminded me of something that really hit home for me this year. We generally use static straps as tree saver when winching but adding a dynamic component to the anchor end. (ie a stretchy tuggum strap) can be a real advantage. You feel the winch load up the assembly and then 'pop' the rig out of the mire. I experienced this when I had all 225 feet off my spool connected to my 100 foot extension and still wound up 25 feet short of the tree. The tuggum saved the day but also made that particular recovery easier.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I assume you mean drive the vehicle out, assisted by the tension in the KERR? At first glance it seem insanely dangerous to use an elastic winch rope, but on reflection, I guess it's no more dangerous than using the KERR the way it's intended (A KERR itself is still pretty insane!).

 

[madizell]

I think the reference is to using, as a tree saver, a kinetic strap rather than a static strap. Experiences vary. I prefer not using a kinetic strap in a winch recovery because the results are not all that predictable, and commonly, you have to load the strap to the point of no stretch before it starts to work anyway, so the benefit is limited. A winch produces kinetic energy very slowly, so a stretch strap is of limited value. Used as a tug strap on a vehicle, a kinetic strap stores and releases energy very quickly, hence the benefit.

So, I usually limit the use of stretch straps to tugs with a vehicle, not as extensions in winching, and certainly not as a tree saver. Hard to say exactly why, perhaps, but after hundreds of recoveries over the years, on trails and in competition, that would be my take on the matter.

 

[michaelgroves]

I think the reference is to using, as a tree saver, a kinetic strap rather than a static strap. Experiences vary. I prefer not using a kinetic strap in a winch recovery because the results are not all that predictable, and commonly, you have to load the strap to the point of no stretch before it starts to work anyway, so the benefit is limited. A winch produces kinetic energy very slowly, so a stretch strap is of limited value. Used as a tug strap on a vehicle, a kinetic strap stores and releases energy very quickly, hence the benefit.

So, I usually limit the use of stretch straps to tugs with a vehicle, not as extensions in winching, and certainly not as a tree saver. Hard to say exactly why, perhaps, but after hundreds of recoveries over the years, on trails and in competition, that would be my take on the matter.

Yes, that certainly makes sense - a KERR gets its advantage from the momentum of the tugging vehicle, so winching with one seems like you'd get none of the benefit, but all the dangers of the stored elasticity.

 

[SeaRubi]

I own a hi-lift but have never used it to get unstuck (for that matter if I was going to dump equipment I didn't use often, the hi-lift would be the first to go). With a good winch, I have not had a use for the lift. There is always a good place to anchor a winch line if you have a Pull-Pal, which I carry, along with an extra 450 feet in line extensions. I don't use and have no use for sand ladders, thanks. They are hard to store and I have yet to encounter terrain that required them, even in sand dunes and desert, but I also don't use tall skinny tires in sand.

A winch is the single most versatile self-recovery device you can carry.

: shakes head :

ok ok - you win, tough guy.

by the way - what happens if your winch burns up?

 

[lowenbrau]

Yes, that certainly makes sense - a KERR gets its advantage from the momentum of the tugging vehicle, so winching with one seems like you'd get none of the benefit, but all the dangers of the stored elasticity.

I expected some raised eyebrows when I mentioned it. I just can't see any dangers to using a 10,000 lbs winch to pull on a 13,800 lbs winch rope against a 20,000 lb stretchy tuggum that is over 300' from the nearest person. The biggest risk is to the anchor (tree), which could potentially be wearing 300 feet of synthetic rope if it were to fail at the fairlead. I can say that this method works when you are trying to roll the truck up on the vegetation without spinning the tires.

 

[michaelgroves]

I expected some raised eyebrows when I mentioned it. I just can't see any dangers to using a 10,000 lbs winch to pull on a 13,800 lbs winch rope against a 20,000 lb stretchy tuggum that is over 300' from the nearest person. The biggest risk is to the anchor (tree), which could potentially be wearing 300 feet of synthetic rope if it were to fail at the fairlead. I can say that this method works when you are trying to roll the truck up on the vegetation without spinning the tires.

I think in my first post on the matter I conceded that the dangers were not any worse than using a KERR in a conventional manner. However, these dangers are not insignificant. The use of a KERR in line with the winch rigging means that all the components are loaded with the the stored energy of the KERR. I take your point that it's aimed in the direction of the anchor, as long as any component failure takes place on the winch side (though 300' is one hell of a long winch line!)

As Madizell says, the additional benefit of using a KERR with a winch is close to zero, because there is almost no kinetic energy being deployed. But whatever hardware does get launched in whatever direction, gets all the "benefits" of, say, 500mm of stretch at 50,000N of force...

So it's not the additional danger I take issue with, as much as the lack of additional benefit!

 

[madizell]

: shakes head :

ok ok - you win, tough guy.

by the way - what happens if your winch burns up?

Well, usually I fix it on the spot. The one time I couldn't, I got help from the rest of the group. The only winch failure I have ever had was a burned brush lead, which was a result of bad design on the part of Bosch. Coincidence or not, I wrote a tech letter to Warn about it and several years later, buying a new brush holder and brushes for the winch, I found they had modified the brush leads and holder exactly as I had suggested. Most likely we all just came to the same conclusion, but the problem is now gone, and regular maintenance should reduce the chance of failure in the field to an acceptable level.

 

[AndrewP]

A winch is a must have. There are many places we all travel where there is no towing or recovery option. I probably use the winch 3-4 times per year, but those times, it easily pays for itself. In a time where truck builds are in the tens of thousands of dollars, the added $1000 for a winch (closer to $500 for an M8000) is insignificant. I can't think of a recovery item that is more useful per pound except your first tow strap.

One thing I did not see mentioned in this thread is how much winches in your group can speed up the whole group on a trail run. If someone can recover themselves in 2 minutes instead of digging, jacking, stacking rocks and snatching with another vehicle, the day goes much better.

And for those of you thinking you can winch with a high lift=you arn't winching far or fast, and you need to carry a long length of chain to do it effectively. While it's technically possible, it doesn't work well in practice, and the rigging takes a long time to set up.

Plus, you can do yard work with your winch and impress your spouse.:sombrero:

 

[Superu]

And for those of you thinking you can winch with a high lift=you arn't winching far or fast, and you need to carry a long length of chain to do it effectively. While it's technically possible, it doesn't work well in practice, and the rigging takes a long time to set up.

When I'm winching a vehicle, speed is usually my last concern. Safety and control are the keys to my approach and while there are times when an electric winch would make for lighter work, the black rat does a phenomenal job, is easy to set up and simple to use. As well as very safe due to its design of constantly maintaining a hold on the cable.

To your hi-lift comments, I think Bill Burke may beg to differ!
Slow, calculated and methodical is the way to go.

 

[AndrewP]

When I'm winching a vehicle, speed is usually my last concern. Safety and control are the keys to my approach and while there are times when an electric winch would make for lighter work, the black rat does a phenomenal job, is easy to set up and simple to use. As well as very safe due to its design of constantly maintaining a hold on the cable.

To your hi-lift comments, I think Bill Burke may beg to differ!
Slow, calculated and methodical is the way to go.

Ha-I'm sure the Black Rat works, but Storing all that cable and putting it away would be a pain in the rear. The safe design is not the hold on the cable, every winch does that! Besides if I'm reading right, you are winching a Subaru? It's probably light enough to push out of a hole with a couple of your friends. (I speak from experience-I had a GL wagon and used to drive around on the dirt roads in the Sierras. Loved my Subaru for it's versatility. Not much ground clearance though.)

I've seen Bill Burke do his hilift winch demonstration, and in my opinion it's a time filler. It's what you do if you are alone, if you don't have another vehicle and if you happen to have a hilift and rigging gear. Not a common scenerio. No one, not even BB would chose to winch that way.

Back to the original question-you end up using your winch enough to make it worth having.