Hyundai'ish?

[Jacket]

My gripe with things like power windows, power door locks, and e-shift t-cases is that they are more complex but they don't really give you any capacity or capability you didn't have before.

Well I can roll down all my windows at 55 mph without taking my eyes off the road. I agree with regards to the t-case. I was just as happy with the shift lever on my 2 previous 4Runners.

The windows still go up and down but now you may face the possibility of having a switch break when you're out in the boonies, the window is down, and there's a snowstorm coming in (I saw this happen to another Montero owner at the Montero rally in 1999. I was grateful for my manual-crank windows.) The T-case still shifts in and out of 4wd but you may find yourself like my buddy with his Ranger that wouldn't go into 4wd when it was 20 below zero (in Laramie, WY, this is a problem.) Besides, as Dave pointed out, the E-shift T-case is not made that way for the convenience of the user, it's made for the convenience of the manufacturer.

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how long all these electronic controls last as compared to a simple mechanical device (although the answer is pretty obvious). Just wait until the next generation 4wd with wireless communications to activate the t-case.:Wow1:

 

[ShottsCruisers]

Well I can roll down all my windows at 55 mph without taking my eyes off the road. I agree with regards to the t-case. I was just as happy with the shift lever on my 2 previous 4Runners.



I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how long all these electronic controls last as compared to a simple mechanical device (although the answer is pretty obvious). Just wait until the next generation 4wd with wireless communications to activate the t-case.:Wow1:

The electric lockers still worked on my '93 80-series at 180K miles when I sold it. :jumping:

The electric CDL still works in my 100 with 125K.

My guess.....the 4-LO electric lock in the LX580 will work for a long time too.

 

[Martinjmpr]

I think we can all agree that good tunes and cold A/C are acceptable "modernizations!"

I actually used to be anti-AC as well (a holdover from my Dad, I think, who despised the unreliable and gas-hogging AC units that were often found on vehicles of the 60's.)

From 1992 to 1999, I owned a 1990 Mitsubishi Montero, and I specifically wanted one with NO AC, thinking it would be unreliable and cost me MPG.

Well, from 1992 through 1998 I was stationed in North Carolina - so I did 6 hot, southern summers with no AC! The worst was in July of 1993. I had been at a military school in Arizona, and had to get back to Fort Bragg in 2 1/2 days.

Driving across central Texas in late July in a vehicle with no AC is a special kind of hell that I hope I never have to experience again. I had all 4 windows down, was going 70mph, and was wearing only shorts. I couldn't even listen to the radio or tape deck because of the wind noise. And I was still miserable! I even did a few more trips between 1995-1998 from NC to CO and back, and tried to avoid the summer sun whenever I could. When I finally traded the Monty in on a (2wd) Ford Ranger, AC was at the top of my "must have" list. Now I refuse to live without it. AC is a great invention!

 

[Pskhaat]

having two separate products doesn't cost you more to manufacture each

But Toyota already has a 105 series for instance.

so as long as the margin on both the PB and jelly are high enough to make both profitable

Not necessarily, statistically some products can be loss leaders and sales drivers.

 

[Pskhaat]

What hunter would pay $45-50K for a new vehicle to go beat up.

Many thousands. Have you seen the sales stats on something like the Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra, or Ford trucks? Any jaunt in the desert or forest road drive reveals there are plenty of folks spending $50k.

 

[ShottsCruisers]

Many thousands. Have you seen the sales stats on something like the Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra, or Ford trucks? Any jaunt in the desert or forest road drive reveals there are plenty of folks spending $50k.

2 1997 F150's and Silvers cost HALF what the 80 did.
Today, 2 F150's and Silver's cost HALF what a UZJ100 does.

 

[Pskhaat]

Except that it's not a "tiny sum", it's a huge investment

Similar Toyota vehicles with all the goodies are sold around the world and some like various European countries where very similar emissions and collision requirements exist. I would bet it's a drop in the bucket percentage to revenue to take the existing line and bring to the US.

Toyota is in business to make money, there's no reason to believe they wouldn't sell a stripped-down cruiser in the US if they thought they could make money doing it.

Well, that's the heart of the issue. I think that there is money left on the table from commercial truck owners, to fleets, to utilitarian lovers like us. It may not be the highest profit sector, but I at this point believe there is money to be made there. The decision to not pursue this sector (like a diesel truck) I can't find any other reason to believe with Toyota's market share and economic power must simply be due to bias decisions in Toyota USA.

reasonable to conclude that their business people have crunched the numbers

I've seen Fortune 10 companies that to date still go ask their cubemates what prices should be for their products and what options there are. The Top 10 US banking institutions barely have a handle on what products and pricing they're putting into the market, same with the top US retailers. I'd bet at Toyota USA there are more ad-hoc Excel spreadsheets running around than there are comprehensive price and elasticity reports.

 

[Pskhaat]

I'm talking about any domestic diesel truck brand new. You're hard pressed to find anything under $40k with very few options.

 

[ShottsCruisers]

I'm talking about any domestic diesel truck brand new. You're hard pressed to find anything under $40k with very few options.

I don't see any $40K new pickups on the trails that folks bought to beat up while hunting.

 

[DaveInDenver]

The decision to not pursue this sector (like a diesel truck) I can't find any other reason to believe with Toyota's market share and economic power must simply be due to bias decisions in Toyota USA.

What we are not seeing here is the back channel and under the table agreements. There are probably significant political gates to bringing in a direct competitor to the Big 3 in this area. A diesel 70 series ute or cab-n-chassis would be a huge problem for Detroit, but it could also be one for Toyota. It might be a marketing blunder because it could look like Toyota is overtly trying to bury the domestics. Ruthless as they are, the Japanese are still sensitive to world politics and public perception. It's also possible that the tariffs are very high on this class of vehicle and that alone makes it cost prohibitive to compete against GM, Ford and Dodge for fleets and utility operators.

 

[Pskhaat]

possible that the tariffs are very high on this class of vehicle and that alone makes it cost prohibitive to compete against GM, Ford and Dodge for fleets and utility operators.

Now that's a true possibility. I know there used to be some import tariffs long ago on that stuff, is that still the case?

 

[Pskhaat]

I don't see any $40K new pickups on the trails that folks bought to beat up while hunting.

On the Father's Day Contingent run, we saw at least a dozen $50k brand new Fords and GMCs with lots of mods pulling $50k 5th wheel home/utility trailers with scores of strapped-down quads not on the highway (where there were an order of magnitude more) but on the trails and backed into forest camps.

The folks we hunt with for pheasant in Nebraska no longer have beater trucks for their hunting trucks but very new ones; in Wisconsin heading out for deer camp in November, they could make SEMA envious; same at agricultural/farming shows and rodeos: it (ironically) appears to becoming taboo to continue driving the old utilitarian beater. All this despite the rising fuel prices.

I see a lot of very built desert rat trucks here (I'm sure you do too). I just can't fathom there's not a bunch of $ to be made in that market.

Anyway, I know this makes me sound like a total Hater, but I'm not, look at my 3 current LandCruisers and nearly 10 more I've owned in the past. Two of 'em new off dealership lots. They make the perfect sense for us, and no other vehicle does. The truth is I am emotionally mad at Toyota because I really really really want a manual tranny HZJ105, or a 70 series Troppie or a diesel Hilux or something that fits me better.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Similar Toyota vehicles with all the goodies are sold around the world and some like various European countries where very similar emissions and collision requirements exist. I would bet it's a drop in the bucket percentage to revenue to take the existing line and bring to the US.

Except it's not a drop in the bucket. It's huge $$$. Emissions, crash tests, air bags, etc - there is a huge cost in bringing a vehicle into US specs that wasn't in US specs before.

Haven't you wondered why Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, et al, build vehicles in the US that are different from their "world market" cars? It's because the cost of converting a "world market" car to US specs is so prohibitive that it's not worth it. That's why you don't see, for example, the Nissan Patrol or the Toyota Troopie in the US. They are (or were) small market vehicles and the cost to bring them up to US specs would not be offset by the sales price. And besides - they sell every one they make in the rest of the world, why would they risk all the costs of converting one of these vehicles to US specs only to put it for sale in a market that is already super-saturated with SUVs?

(IMO the fact that we have emissions/safety standards that are so at odds with the rest of the world is actually a form of economic protectionism. What's crazy is that even the "domestic" manufacturers make one set of vehicles for the US and another one for pretty much everywhere else on the planet. But that's another topic...)

Tariffs also play into this. On pickup trucks, at least (don't know about SUVs) there is a 25% punitive tariff on imported trucks, which is why trucks were the first "transplants" to be assembled in the US.

And go back to the bottom line: Who would be in the market for these vehicles? Even a stripped down UJZ or Troopie would probably sell for 50-70k new, right? Especially if it had a diesel. So who (a) has that kind of money to spend and (b) wants to spend it on a stripper?

There's also the problem of competition with their own used market. IOW, the person who is in the market for the stripped down, lean-and-mean truck probably doesn't care much if it's new or a few years old. So, if he's got a choice between the brand new truck at 50k, or the 4-5 year old model at 25k, then he can probably figure that for another 25k he can make that into exactly the vehicle of his dreams.

Think of what you could build if you had 50k to spend - you could find a worn out old FJ60 and turn it into whatever you wanted, and probably still have money left over.

Could Toyota make a basic, no-frills SUV and sell it for $25k? Probably. In fact, they'd probably tell you that the FJ cruiser is exactly that vehicle.

 

[Pskhaat]

Even a stripped down UJZ or Troopie would probably sell for 50-70k new, right?

I don't know. Due to market price point? or cost? We keep throwing around the $50k mark, but I really don't know what their cost is on existing production/tooling-already-amortized/like vehicles. I could tell you the perfect price point looking at their transactional sales, but we wouldn't have that handy.

Could they sell a HD Diesel Tundra for $50k? All day long.

a basic, no-frills SUV and sell it for $25k? Probably. In fact, they'd probably tell you that the FJ cruiser is exactly that vehicle.

Telling me is exactly right. No matter how it plays out, the FJ ain't no Cruiser. Nonetheless, put a small diesel in against their 6spd, give me two more doors and either a bed or a wagon with 3rd row and I'm sold well above $25k.

 

[Martinjmpr]

I don't know. Due to market price point? or cost? We keep throwing around the $50k mark, but I really don't know what their cost is on existing production/tooling-already-amortized/like vehicles. I could tell you the perfect price point looking at their transactional sales, but we wouldn't have that handy.

I can't imagine that it would be less. Those vehicles are built. Also, remember that most buyers of those heavy duty vehicles like the Troopie are either very wealthy businessmen, companies, or government/nongovernment organizations. IOW, they're people or organizations who can drop $50k or even $75k on a vehicle without thinking because they're generally spending someone else's money, not their own.

Could they sell a HD Diesel Tundra for $50k? All day long.

Possibly. It's true that Ford, Chevy and Dodge diesel trucks have MSRPs in the $40k-$45k range, but I wonder how many people are actually paying that? Generally there are heavy discounts/rebates/incentives applied to purchase prices of Big 3 vehicles. My GF's son just bought a brand new Dodge Ram crew cab, 4x4 (non diesel, though) that stickered around $33k, but by the time they applied all his discounts and incentives his purchase price was just above $20k. I sometimes think the big 3 artificially inflate their MSRPs so they can then offer "great deals" by offering $10k off the sticker price.

Telling me is exactly right. No matter how it plays out, the FJ ain't no Cruiser. Nonetheless, put a small diesel in against their 6spd, give me two more doors and either a bed or a wagon with 3rd row and I'm sold well above $25k.

I seem to recall that the Xterra was also offered as a "no frills" vehicle when it was brought out in 1999, but quickly morphed into another feature-laden mall cruiser.

In any case, if FJ cruiser sales are high, we may be able to expect some different variations in the future. I would like to see something with more usable cargo room and maybe without the billboard-sized blind spots that the FJ currently has.

Judging from what I see around Denver, FJ cruisers are extremely popular. I sure as hell see more of those on the road than H3s. And you can't touch an FJ for under $28k around here, even though the MSRP theoretically starts around $23k.