Identify Your Enemies - How are Enviro/Eco Groups Funded?

NMC_EXP

Explorer
Well, how many 4x4 trails are enough?

Howard Snell

I do not recommend creating new 4x4 trails, simply preserving the trails already in existence. That as opposed to labeling land as wilderness, WSA, "area of critical environmental concern". These and several other designations prohibit motorized travel and thereby closing pre-existing trails. In my neck of the woods, lands which have or are slated to become wilderness or wilderness-like are developed land which does not meet the definition of wilderness in the original act.

Case in point is the Grape Creek Wilderness Study Area (WSA). Grape Creek runs in a small canyon between Canon City and the Wet Mtn Valley. Grape Creek Canyon has been mined, ranched and had a rail line running its length. This proposed "wilderness" area contains three currently valid patented land claims. It is developed, not wilderness.

One stated objective of this wilderness is to create a wildlife "corridor" between the Wet Mtn Valley and the plains. Well, if the critters travel from the WMV downstream thru the Grape Ck Canyon their journey will end in Canon City......gimme a break.

Another objective is to protect "habitat suitable for peregrine falcon nesting". Peregrines were introduced into Manhattan and are doing fine nesting on skyscrapers and eating pigeons.

My point is that with dubious justifications such as these being used successfully to close trails, there is no BLM and FS land immune from being closed to vehicles.
 

NMC_EXP

Explorer
There is a fundamental difference between building/improving new 4x4 routes or installing gondolas and simply preserving and protecting historic access we already have, i.e. existing routes and roads. With few exceptions I'm not an advocate of more routes, rather preserving access to our current routes and protecting the land on both sides of the road with classifications that fit, Wilderness if it qualifies, etc. Many of the anti-OHV groups (SUWA for example) isn't working to thwart the building of new routes, rather they are proactively working to close historic routes that have been used by motorized vehicles for 50+ years. That is not acceptable imo.

SUWA finds new Wilderness everytime they do an inventory, from 3.xM acrers to well over 10+M acres. If we can continue to use the land and they can continue to find new Wilderness, is there really an issue? ;)

Well said.
 

mezmochill

Is outside
Do people want to drive to a spot to see more roads, hear more noise, see less wildlife, see more TRASH.

Wilderness is far greater than any one user groups fun little pastime.

You should be proud of the amount of wilderness the US has. It's a legacy.


Begin by packing out all of your trash and maybe pack out the garbage someone else left behind. The trash is EVERYWHERE. Gain respect from others and maybe win some allies.

Enemies, ha!
 

rayra

Expedition Leader
I see Hanson hasn't come back or deigned to answer my questions / challenge about the necessity of the petrochemical industries to his 'conserventure' business.


---

'A handful of superrich donors have created the illusion of a grassroots environmental movement.'

http://www.city-journal.org/2015/25_2_california-environmentalism.html#.VVyttzr9iyo.twitter


In the fall of 2010, an army of California groups—including blue-collar unions, small businesses, manufacturers, and big energy companies—tried to persuade voters to suspend the state’s rigorous anti-global-warming law, which mandates a rollback of greenhouse-gas emissions to 1990 levels. The advocates for delaying the law argued that, with an unemployment rate of 12.4 percent, California needed to focus on creating jobs and couldn’t afford costly new measures to slash carbon emissions, such as requiring utilities to generate power from renewable sources. But what proponents of the jobs measure, known as Proposition 23, didn’t count on was the financial might of California’s environmentalists. In just months, greens raised three times as much money as the initiative’s supporters. As the Los Angeles Times put it, the environmentalists then “steamrolled” their foes with a $30 million campaign that deployed television ads featuring Hollywood celebrities, millions of mailings, and hundreds of thousands of robo-calls and text messages. One environmentalist described the coalition that crushed Prop. 23—comprising entertainers, hedge-fund honchos, technology billionaires, and the many organizations that they back—as “the new face of the environmental movement.” It wasn’t the face of the movement, though, but its pocketbook that won the battle.

Californians have long had a green reputation. But for many years, interest in the environment expressed itself in modest programs of nature conservation, or in efforts to mitigate pollution problems such as the smog that once choked the state’s cities. Even as they gained political power over the last 15 years or so, however, California greens have moved steadily leftward—touting, for example, zero-growth initiatives that make it crazily expensive to create jobs, housing, and infrastructure. Credit, or blame, for this development should go to a small circle of superrich Californians, who made their fortunes chiefly in so-called clean industries like technology and finance, and who have poured vast sums of money into the green cause. These wealthy individuals bankroll hundreds of environmental organizations and spend massively to pass green ballot initiatives and elect green-friendly pols. So influential are these West Coast players that a recent report from Columbia University’s Journalism School—otherwise sympathetic to environmentalism—described the concentration of green power as “troubling.” Even more disconcerting, these true believers also seem intent on promoting their aggressive form of environmentalism around the country. Call it the Californication of the green movement.

California’s concern for nature has moved far from its origins. Back in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, the state’s extraordinary beauty helped give rise to the antecedents of modern environmentalism. John Muir embodied the conservationist and preservationist spirit of the era. A Scottish immigrant with a deep love for the outdoors, Muir helped to get Congress in 1890 to establish Yosemite National Park in the central eastern part of the state and in 1892 cofounded the Sierra Club as a means for Californians to enjoy—and protect—the magnificent Sierra Nevada mountain range. Several decades later, a young San Francisco resident, Ansel Adams, discovered Yosemite, joined the Sierra Club, and, with a Brownie camera that his father had given him, began photographing the California landscape. Adams’s romantic vistas captured mid-twentieth-century America’s imagination, and he used his artistic influence to reinforce Muir’s appeals to preserve Yosemite.

Struggles over the protection of undeveloped parts of California characterized the green movement for decades, until a new type of environmentalism began to emerge in the 1960s, amid growing concerns about the impact of pollution on air, water, and soil. The recognition that the burning of leaded gasoline generated urban smog prompted Californians—living in a state with the nation’s greatest number of automobiles—to lobby for better air quality. In 1967, Republican governor Ronald Reagan signed a law setting up an agency to pursue that end—the first such state environmental body in the country.

Drawing on new intellectual currents, Reagan’s successor, Democrat Jerry Brown, took office in 1975 proselytizing for a more radical form of environmentalism. In 1973, the Norwegian philosopher Arne Næss had characterized conservation programs and efforts to limit the harmful effects of pollution as mere “shallow ecology.” Næss instead propounded a sweeping “deep ecology,” which argued that every living thing had a right to its existence and which sought sharply to constrain human activity. That same year, the economist E. F. Schumacher authored the bestseller Small Is Beautiful, a book promoting a “sustainable economics” based on limits to growth. Brown’s governing agenda showed the influence of these ideas, including a reduced pace of government-sponsored infrastructure construction and other development. Some of the consequences of Brown’s left-green enthusiasms proved too much for Californians to swallow, however. In 1980, a Mediterranean fruit-fly infestation threatened the state’s crops, but the governor hesitated to attack the outbreak with pesticides. By the time Brown ordered spraying, the pest had spread so extensively that buyers were threatening to boycott the state’s produce. Brown’s popularity plummeted, short-circuiting his bid to win a U.S. Senate seat in 1982. For the next 16 years, his successors—Republicans George Deukmejian and Pete Wilson—often used their office to check the power of environmentalists, including those working for the government’s environmental bureaucracies, which had proliferated during the 1970s.

Despite forcing this temporary pushback, California’s greens would be emboldened by mutations in the state’s economy. For decades, two largely blue-collar industries—manufacturing and agriculture—had driven the state’s economic growth. But in the early 1960s, advances in semiconductors transformed the area around Stanford University and San Jose—once known as the Valley of the Heart’s Delight because of its agricultural riches—into the center of American technological innovation: Silicon Valley. With this dramatic shift came staggering affluence, not only from the technology being invented but also from burgeoning financial services, which took off in the Valley and nearby San Francisco to help fund the tech boom. A 2013 census report found that the greater San Jose/Santa Clara area, the heart of Silicon Valley, had the nation’s second-highest concentration of wealth, behind only Connecticut’s suburban bedroom communities, filled with high-paid Wall Streeters. The San Francisco peninsula, home to many working in the Valley’s tech industries, ranked as America’s fourth-wealthiest metro area.
 

rayra

Expedition Leader
Fresh demonstration of this hypocritical idiocy posing as a 'grassroots' eco movement, the foolishness in portland this week where environmental-marxists suspeneded themselves from a bridge in an attempt to obstruct the return to duty of an ice breaker contracted for oil exploration / development in the arctic.

http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/29658...ng-off-st-johns-bridge-to-block-ships-passage

79jMhRG.jpg


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Plastic awning, plastic table, plastic pens, plastic diapers, plastic packs and plastic chairs and an Apple Watch with a plastic band, to sign up volunteers to get in their plastic kayaks and be on the water all day to protest evil corporations that drill for the oil ALL of these products are made with.

Apple's Revenue last year was $182 Billion. Their net profit was 22%
Shell's Revenue last year was $482 Billion. Their net profit was 6%

yet somehow 'Big Oil' is 'Evil'.
 

mezmochill

Is outside
They are the fringe, so why get so worked up kiddo.

Get outside and wallow in the wilderness. It will help you relax.

It's OK things will get better.:)
 

KevinsMap

Adventurer
Them vs Us

I, for one, wholeheartedly agree with Jonathan. Is everything he wrote the indisputable truth? Well, you know, I really do not think he has written like someone who sees his point-of-view as infallible.

But, yea, there certainly is a lot of "crap" written here... mostly written by rude, name-spewing, my-facts-are-indisputable fellows convinced that they alone, and those who share their righteous outrage, are the only grown-ups in the room. Happens on all sides of the Partisan Divide, and it has happened here. But... I just don't see Jonathan taking that line. Do you... any of you?

Maybe you know him personally, and can assure me he deserves a good thrashing. Never met the man.

Who am I? Boyo, you could search for 10 years and not find a guy more likely to be run over in the political "Middle of the Road" than me, during this age of no compromise with the enemy; that is to say, your hated, carefully sought out and identified enemy who are also... your fellow Americans. Right, Them. Not your kind of "good people". Them!

In my fathers era, you would have shared a foxhole with "Them", fighting another enemy that was much, much worse. Your modern enemy, "Them", would have saved your sorry behind, or you his. Take that perspective and shove all the vitriol you can at it... then visit the Memorial at Omaha Beach. I have. It will be Ok, if you wait till you stop crying, to change your tune.

Time to grow up again, America, and find common ground. We have done it before. We can do it now. Don't wait for THEM to start; start yourself. Don't try to convert Them; just find the common ground and then find practical ways to "agree to disagree".

That is how we built the United States of America. We have never agreed with one another, often to bloodshed. But we have endured. We found common ground.
 
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rayra

Expedition Leader
Common ground requires common facts and common courtesy. The tyrants using phony "science" to lever court and regulatory edicts that deny access or use of the land to other people are the real problem. They create a false narrative and demand we all march to it. That shouldn't be accommodated or negotiated with. It's the Gray Fallacy writ large upon our very lives and livelihoods.
 

KevinsMap

Adventurer
Common ground requires common facts and common courtesy.

No, it does not.

Treaties, agreements, contracts and political accommodations all require only a desire to reach agreement, and the agreement to disagree about issues not covered. It need not be very "friendly" at all, and even your attitude is sufficient to find common ground when the need is great. Imperfect political contracts, every single one of them. But there is no other kind, anywhere or anytime, because the creatures making the agreements are deeply imperfect. Just like you, and me, and all those people you despise as "tyrants", "They" who are "False". They think much the same of you, of course.

So? Long ago we found a solution to this nihilism that prefers to be Right instead of Civil. From the Magna Carta to the Constitution of the United States of America, and at every point of our history down to the present day, there were always plenty of people in the background who prefered open and endless warfare to any political contract. But these agreements created our America, gave us the framework to endure our differences.

We found common ground. And, as I wrote in my earlier post, we sometimes paid in blood to defend it... fighting right close beside our fellow Americans with whom we so forcefully disagree. We are, all of us together, buried at Omaha Beach.
 
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Jonathan Hanson

Supporting Sponsor
Wilderness use "man days" is less than 5% of total government ground use.
How much wilderness is enough?

Ironically, wilderness areas comprise roughly five percent of all land in the U.S.

Seems fair to me.

And you have misunderstood the intent of the Wilderness Act. It's not about us. Read it again if you haven't. It's about putting the health of the habitat and the wildlife above our own recreational convenience. That's what the other 95 percent of the land is for.

I see Hanson hasn't come back or deigned to answer my questions / challenge about the necessity of the petrochemical industries to his 'conserventure' business.

Why on earth would I? You've already made up your mind, as did the OP, that I'm the "enemy." I own eight vehicles and motorcycles; how, exactly, do you figure I'm against drilling for oil? If I'm for it does that mean I have to let Exxon et al do it however and wherever they please?

I don't participate in these discussions at length for the same reason I don't debate Birthers, or young-earth creationists, or those who think we faked the moon landing. More and more, people don't look at evidence and then decide what to believe; they decide what they want to believe first, then look for evidence to support it, no matter how scant that evidence might be. It's why we have otherwise intelligent parents refusing to vaccinate their children. I have huge respect for those who've persevered here and in similar threads, fighting this nasty "Know your enemy" mentality. If I delve too deeply into them I just get depressed at the polarized state of discussion in the U.S.

I think America needs more wilderness and more aircraft carriers. Go ahead, pigeonhole me.
 

KevinsMap

Adventurer
Go ahead, pigeonhole me.

Ok, i'll give it a try... but I prefer the classics:

"... "Watch him folks, 'cause he's a thoroughly dangerous man
Well, you may not know it, but this man's a spy
He's an undercover agent for the FBI
And he's been sent down here to infiltrate the Klu Klux Klan"...

... "Well, he's a friend of them long-haired, hippie-type pinko ********
And I'll bet you he's even got a Commie flag
Tacked up on the wall inside of his garage""

So appropriate for the general level of discourse in America today. Charlie Daniels, thank you, for reminding us that we used to mock this sort of thing; now you can have your own cable show talking just like that.
 
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goodtimes

Expedition Poseur
... "Well, he's a friend of them long-haired, hippie-type pinko ********
And I'll bet you he's even got a Commie flag
Tacked up on the wall inside of his garage""
.

It's far worse than that.

Since his "garage" doesn't have walls, the closest thing to being "tacked up" on them is the galvanized series rover frame leaning against a post.

Of course, the rover that it's supposed to go under does have a "peace sign, mag wheels, and a 4-on-the-floor . . .", but I doubt you'd ever find Jonathan at any place named the "Cloud 9".
 

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