If GM made a DIESEL half-ton Silverado/Tahoe/Suburban, would you?...

[blackdmax15]

I want a 4.5, but lets face facts. GM will never build a 1/2 ton regular cab shortbox 2wd in WT trim.......with a diesel. I can read a map and roll down my own damn windows. Don't need $25k worth of fancy woman accessories in my truck.

^^^what he said. I am a diesel fanatic and have been for years. I've been saying diesel will explode in America for the better part of 15 years now. Where manufacturers are screwing themselves is only offering these engines on luxury models. If I could get a cloth seat grand Cherokee, I no kidding would buy one tomorrow (replacing my wife's GLK350). But when they only offer the engines in the luxury models, they price themselves out of the market. Dodge (Ram) needs to offer the new 3.0 in work trucks for those who use and would benefit from a diesel.

My argument is this: the limited grand Cherokee prices out to 52-55k. For 59k I can buy a new diesel Q7 or GL350 both also in diesel. But if I could get a stripped GC with the diesel for say 32-35k, it would be a no brainer. My reg cab long bed gmc was 39k out the door. It's the cheapest diesel 3/4ton one can buy and gets better mpg than most gasses out there, especially when I tow. Hell with my last military move I paid for half of it. I think diesels are still the way to go for some people but not if manufacturers price themselves out of the market.

Not to start brand wars or arguments, but between my father and myself, we have owned 8 duramax trucks. Only problems were with the LB7 truck with the injectors and they extended the warranty out to 200k. I feel perfectly safe and feel they are super reliable. For an expo standpoint, the range of the diesel is a big plus. I definitely see where everyone is coming from, but there are goods and others for both gas and diesel. Sorry for rambling.

 

[ssapach]

I would be curious to check it out to tell you the truth.

But to fork over the cash, not likely. I'm tired of auto makers not allowing me to "build" the kind of truck I want. Oh, you wanted the better stereo, well not you have to have carpet floors, power windows, heated power seats and it will only cost you $5k more. But you get the better stereo!

No thanks......

 

[rkj__]

I'm tired of auto makers not allowing me to "build" the kind of truck I want. Oh, you wanted the better stereo, well not you have to have carpet floors, power windows, heated power seats and it will only cost you $5k more. But you get the better stereo!

No thanks......

Yes, I also find these option bundles are sometimes really stupid. Especially the engine options. Manufacturers seem to treat more power as a "luxury." So, if you want a 6.2L, you must want the top of the line trim, right? Sometimes, but not always.

 

[plumber mike]

They all lost me when they quit the manual transmission. If I'm shelling out 50k, it going to have to be exactly what I want, and its not. The 2011 dodge I purchased with the manny tranny/manny trans case pulled off the dealers lot getting 12 mpg empty.....not what I wanted.

The EPA killed any chance of a small diesel being a sucess here in the states.

 

[JohnsD90]

EXPO is the ONLY community that I frequent out all automotive, fleet and industry related forums that really embrace diesels. The fleet and commercial world is trying to figure out how to get away from diesels altogether. Look at UPS, which is one of the largest fleets in the US, they are getting rid of their older diesel delivery package cars and replacing them with Workhorse and Freightliners with GM gasoline engines for durability reasons.

Ahh yes, maybe over the road truckers will go to gas motors too for their great fuel economy and durability. I know UPS has been using 5.9 cummins motors as diesel and with natural gas, and they still run plenty of diesels, this is the first im hearing they are switching to gas.

I would consider a half ton for $35k diesel like dodge is going to do, never $50k on a half ton, it will not be a real consideration unless its stick.

 

[ssapach]

Yes, I also find these option bundles are sometimes really stupid. Especially the engine options. Manufacturers seem to treat more power as a "luxury." So, if you want a 6.2L, you must want the top of the line trim, right? Sometimes, but not always.

Out of curiosity I had to check the GM website.

If I want a regular cab pickup, I can't have the powerful 6.2 engine. It's just not allowed I guess. I'm also not allowed to have the SLT trim package.....

So I went to build a 4 door truck. Well now I can have the 6.2! I find a nice bright red colour I like, then I find some decent looking rims. I select the rims and all of a sudden I can't have that bright red truck! Seriously GM, ******??? The rims don't get along with red paint? It's a freakin' bolt on piece yet I can't have it.

I find it horribly ridiculous how much you are limited in what you can get on a truck and what you have to put up with just to get that one item. I don't doubt that they wrangle some poor bugger in just for the 400 ponies and sell him a 4 door truck he didn't exactly want or need.

I actually feel like going into a dealership now to price out a truck......and annoy them with silly questions about their stupid option limitations.:elkgrin:

 

[JSyrja]

I'd probably consider it, but it would have to be reasonable and competitive with the gassers, and they would have to change the terrible, terrible, terrible look of the new GMs. GM has been making some frustrating decisions though as stated. I'll ignore the hideousness of the new half tons, because that's a whole different can of worms. The frustrating choices on their build it site get me going. I want a reg cab short box, with the 6.2, cant have it. It'll fit in there, no problem. They just say no. If you want anything, you have to go up the next trim level to get half the options, and then that trim always comes with a bunch of option I don't want, chrome appearance, no thanks. As mentioned, weird colour/tire combinations that don't work, there's weird combinations as well that don't play with the seating options as well. They've even got weird things going on at their HD level, where you can't have duel batteries and one of their alternator options, either upgraged alt or duel, I can't remember.

If they've just let me build the truck how I wanted, things would be much nicer.

 

[rkj__]

I actually feel like going into a dealership now to price out a truck......and annoy them with silly questions about their stupid option limitations.:elkgrin:

Do it! :elkgrin:

 

[Buliwyf]

It's doable. There still are some decent diesels out there. A quality engine looks like a quality engine. I can tell 30 seconds after popping the hood. Am I psychic? Don't know. But the clean simple setup used on many industrial engines John Deere, Cummins etc. could transfer over to light trucks eventually. But for now we're stuck with complex hardly reliable machines. Just the way it is. Would I buy a diesel for a 1/2ton? Likely not. Especially a big one. Maybe a weaker more fuel effiecient 4.0L V6 turbodiesel with a lowly 6000 pound tow rating. Fuel economy trumps power and speed IMO. I see no need for an engine designed for Momo's by Momo's in a half ton that shouldn't be used for heavy loads. I'm also concerned about weight. The half ton IFS under Toyota/GM/Nissan/Ford doesn't fill me with a ton of confidence.
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Ford could build a better engine if they kept things a bit simpler. The new 6.7L looks very good IMO. Ford also needs to take better care of their techs on warranty work to make sure the job gets fixed right the first time.
Dodge could have a better engine if they admitted that it needs to run properly without load as well as with load.
GM just needs some QC work and better attention to detail. Then make sure it has the parts and programming to spray the fuel as well as the Ford deos. The programming is what makes our Fleet GM's slower than our Fleet Fords. But I don't know if a soft piston or conrod is the reason they program them weak on the bottom.
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Not fair to bring semi's into this. Their engines are better built and far more expensive than anything in a pickup. Reliability > than up front cost in the heavy trucking industry. But to the average pickup consumer: Reliability < cupholders and Ipod jack. And UPS has ordered a bunch of GM 8.1L crate engines. Allthough, obviously, all their heavys are diesel.

 

[Larry]

I know UPS has been using 5.9 cummins motors as diesel and with natural gas, and they still run plenty of diesels, this is the first im hearing they are switching to gas.

Actually, UPS doesn't have many 5.9L engines in the US, Canada or Puerto Rico. In fact, they have very few and even fewer CNG delivery vans. They have many 7.3L (T444E), 6.4L (VT365), Mercedes diesels and a huge amount of gasoline engines (all GM Vortec 4.8 and 6.0L). Pretty much all new trucks since 2007 are gasoline. Pay more attention to UPS trucks as the majority of them today are running gasoline engines, not diesels. Nobody has really noticed because they are so quiet now. The change in powertrain was mainly brought on due the increase cost of new vehicle with diesel powertrain inception (12K to 15K premium for medium duty diesel engines), increase in fuel cost, increase in maintenance and decrease in diesel reliability and durability. The gas engines are going just as many miles in their lifetime than the diesels where a new gas engine costs $4000 to replace when a diesel costs $15,000 not to mention the issues with diesels throughout its lifetime, especially on late model diesels. Old pre-emissions diesels are fine, just very polluting and gives the company a bad image.

Ahh yes, maybe over the road truckers will go to gas motors too for their great fuel economy and durability.

Don't laugh, it is happening now. There are many over the road trucks running &#8220;gas&#8221; engines these days and within next 10 years the number is projected to outpace diesel OTR trucks according to some industry analysts.

Plan on seeing a lot more gasoline engines in larger trucks running on propane and CNG. Big bore diesel engines in OTR trucks running CNG is already coming very widely used. A diesel engine running on diesel fuel might become a rare item in the years to come if the so called experts are correct. These rigs have engines with diesel engine architecture but they run spark plugs and plug wires just like a gasoline engine although they do maintain the high compression of the diesel engine as CNG and LNG work well with high compression engines. The nice thing about running CNG in a medium duty or class 8 truck is the fact these engines require no aftertreatment systems (DOC, DPF, SCR, etc). And it is no secret the entire industry is having issues with aftertreatment sytems on diesel engines. Fleets running CNG trucks are currently also receiving tax breaks, etc.

If you recall, it wasn't all that long ago where over the road trucks did run gasoline engines. Remember the old GMC V12s and some straight 8 gasoline engines used in semis in the 50's? Many of those trucks where still roaming around up into the 70's. Medium Duty pretty much always ran gasoline engines well into the 80's.

When you see trucks with these odd square tanks behind the cab, these are CNG power rigs. You probably see them every day without realizing they are not true &#8220;diesel&#8221; rigs.

This is one example of a diesel engine engineered to run on "gas" CNG:

ISX12 G (12L) Cummins Westport: Featuring proven Stoichiometric cooled Exhaust Gas Recirculation (SEGR) combustion technology, spark
Ignition and simple Three-Way Catalyst (TWC) aftertreatment, the ISX12 G delivers strong pulling power and heavy-duty durability and performance that customers can depend on.

The ISX12 G is a dedicated natural gas engine, based on the Cummins ISX12 diesel engine, that operates on 100 percent clean-burning, low-cost natural gas. The ISX12 G is manufactured on the same assembly line as the Cummins ISX12 engine.

Excerpt from the ISL G webpage:

The ISL G is capable of operating on compressed or liquefied natural gas (CNG, LNG). The ISL G can also
operate on up to 100 percent biomethane &#8211; renewable natural gas made from biogas or landfill gas that has been upgraded to pipeline- and vehicle fuel-quality. (no diesel)

The ISX12 G and ISL G are just a couple of many dedicated spark ignited CNG &#8220;diesel&#8221; engines that will be on the market in short time.

See those 6 round things on the valve cover? Those are coil packs and there are spark plugs about 5 inches below them. Is this a diesel engine or "gas"? They consider it a gas engine as it is Spark ignited, not compression ignited.

So, we have a ton of little cars and trucks coming into the market with diesel engine options next year but yet the big boy trucks and major fleets are scrambling like crazy to get away from diesel fuel. Why do you think that is? In my opinion the small vehicle manufacturers are looking at diesels for extra MPG to help with CAFE, not because they are a superior engines with high durability. Meanwhile, the big truck world is looking for alternatives to today's unreliable, less durable modern emissions compliant diesel engines while seeking durability and cost savings in the way of fuel cost, maintenance and tax breaks, although the (tax breaks won't last forever on these) with CNG and LNG, basically gas engines. The CNG/LNG gig also help companies in their go "Green" movement for PR. The diesel engine story between light trucks/cars and big trucks are almost starting to remind me of the wannabes that add lambo doors on their Honda Accord then a real Lamborghini pulls up next to them with front hinged swing doors. Someday real soon a guy will pull up next to a semi driving his rattly diesel Titan and park next to a semi running a gas engine

 

[JohnsD90]

Actually, UPS doesn't have many 5.9L engines in the US, Canada or Puerto Rico. In fact, they have very few and even fewer CNG delivery vans. They have many 7.3L (T444E), 6.4L (VT365), Mercedes diesels and a huge amount of gasoline engines (all GM Vortec 4.8 and 6.0L). Pretty much all new trucks since 2007 are gasoline. Pay more attention to UPS trucks as the majority of them today are running gasoline engines, not diesels. Nobody has really noticed because they are so quiet now. The change in powertrain was mainly brought on due the increase cost of new vehicle with diesel powertrain inception (12K to 15K premium for medium duty diesel engines), increase in fuel cost, increase in maintenance and decrease in diesel reliability and durability. The gas engines are going just as many miles in their lifetime than the diesels where a new gas engine costs $4000 to replace when a diesel costs $15,000 not to mention the issues with diesels throughout its lifetime, especially on late model diesels. Old pre-emissions diesels are fine, just very polluting and gives the company a bad image.



Don't laugh, it is happening now. There are many over the road trucks running &#8220;gas&#8221; engines these days and within next 10 years the number is projected to outpace diesel OTR trucks according to some industry analysts.

Plan on seeing a lot more gasoline engines in larger trucks running on propane and CNG. Big bore diesel engines in OTR trucks running CNG is already coming very widely used. A diesel engine running on diesel fuel might become a rare item in the years to come if the so called experts are correct. These rigs have engines with diesel engine architecture but they run spark plugs and plug wires just like a gasoline engine although they do maintain the high compression of the diesel engine as CNG and LNG work well with high compression engines. The nice thing about running CNG in a medium duty or class 8 truck is the fact these engines require no aftertreatment systems (DOC, DPF, SCR, etc). And it is no secret the entire industry is having issues with aftertreatment sytems on diesel engines. Fleets running CNG trucks are currently also receiving tax breaks, etc.

If you recall, it wasn't all that long ago where over the road trucks did run gasoline engines. Remember the old GMC V12s and some straight 8 gasoline engines used in semis in the 50's? Many of those trucks where still roaming around up into the 70's. Medium Duty pretty much always ran gasoline engines well into the 80's.

When you see trucks with these odd square tanks behind the cab, these are CNG power rigs. You probably see them every day without realizing they are not true &#8220;diesel&#8221; rigs.

This is one example of a diesel engine engineered to run on "gas" CNG:

ISX12 G (12L) Cummins Westport: Featuring proven Stoichiometric cooled Exhaust Gas Recirculation (SEGR) combustion technology, spark
Ignition and simple Three-Way Catalyst (TWC) aftertreatment, the ISX12 G delivers strong pulling power and heavy-duty durability and performance that customers can depend on.

The ISX12 G is a dedicated natural gas engine, based on the Cummins ISX12 diesel engine, that operates on 100 percent clean-burning, low-cost natural gas. The ISX12 G is manufactured on the same assembly line as the Cummins ISX12 engine.

Excerpt from the ISL G webpage:

The ISL G is capable of operating on compressed or liquefied natural gas (CNG, LNG). The ISL G can also
operate on up to 100 percent biomethane &#8211; renewable natural gas made from biogas or landfill gas that has been upgraded to pipeline- and vehicle fuel-quality. (no diesel)

The ISX12 G and ISL G are just a couple of many dedicated spark ignited CNG &#8220;diesel&#8221; engines that will be on the market in short time.

See those 6 round things on the valve cover? Those are coil packs and there are spark plugs about 5 inches below them. Is this a diesel engine or "gas"? They consider it a gas engine as it is Spark ignited, not compression ignited.


So, we have a ton of little cars and trucks coming into the market with diesel engine options next year but yet the big boy trucks and major fleets are scrambling like crazy to get away from diesel fuel. Why do you think that is? In my opinion the small vehicle manufacturers are looking at diesels for extra MPG to help with CAFE, not because they are a superior engines with high durability. Meanwhile, the big truck world is looking for alternatives to today's unreliable, less durable modern emissions compliant diesel engines while seeking durability and cost savings in the way of fuel cost, maintenance and tax breaks, although the (tax breaks won't last forever on these) with CNG and LNG, basically gas engines. The CNG/LNG gig also help companies in their go "Green" movement for PR. The diesel engine story between light trucks/cars and big trucks are almost starting to remind me of the wannabes that add lambo doors on their Honda Accord then a real Lamborghini pulls up next to them with front hinged swing doors. Someday real soon a guy will pull up next to a semi driving his rattly diesel Titan and park next to a semi running a gas engine

CNG is a bit different than Gasoline as you stated. I havent seen/noticed many CNG OTR trucks, most of the UPS trucks i see are 5.9 cummins with a handful being CNG but i also see them at their end of life recylcing, and those motors are in excellent condition for what they are when they are at the end of their life with UPS.

CNG is good, especially right now with it being cheap and clean and efficient, but once it is utilized more by more companies, the price will shoot up and im sure the goverment will fine a way to make manufacturers add crap to them to make them less efficient and more expensive, Isn't that how it works?

Definetley agree on diesels being the new ricers, it is what it is, i like mine though.

 

[JohnsD90]

Not fair to bring semi's into this. Their engines are better built and far more expensive than anything in a pickup. Reliability > than up front cost in the heavy trucking industry. But to the average pickup consumer: Reliability < cupholders and Ipod jack. And UPS has ordered a bunch of GM 8.1L crate engines. Allthough, obviously, all their heavys are diesel.

No cupholders suck, i have no problem with no A/C and manual locks and windows, and vinyl seats, but no cupholders gets annoying fast. Both the rover and Dodge have no cupholders!

 

[Buliwyf]

Diesels converted to CNG or Propane are notoriously unreliable and lack power. They're just replacing the injectors with a spark plug sleeve. You get to pay for a diesel, then pay some more for it to be converted to gas. It's expensive. Many of my genset customers are chooseing NG engines because of code issues with diesel tanks onsite, or because they're too stupid and lazy to check the fuel level on a diesel unit. But make no mistake, simple diesel engines are far more reliable and more powerful than NG.

 

[Larry]

But make no mistake, simple diesel engines are far more reliable and more powerful than NG.

Depends who you talk too I guess. As with anything, CNG, LNG and even propane have their own idiosyncrasies that need fine tuning but just by eliminating the entire aftertreatment system relieves the gaseous fuel engines of a lot of problems that are now plaguing diesels. There is no argument with that fact.

 

[XRrider]

Why did GM choose to make it a V8?