Improved Engine Cooling?

[michaelgroves]

interesting.

what points do you feel are theory?

imo, Musky is 100% correct in his recommendations on what to look for with cooling issues.

I wasn't suggesting any of musky's points weren't valid. Just that any possible explanation of or solution to a problem, is "theory", until it's determined what the actual problem is. For some reason, when the engineer suggests a possibility, it's denounced as "theory", as if both engineering and theory are to be looked down on. It's not just this thread, either, else I'd have said nothing.

 

[Blueboy]

it's determined what the actual problem is.

again, interesting to me as I see you live in the UK.

from my US engr. viewpoint, the problem is the vehicle overheats.

the solution could be any combination of what Musky recommended.

guess its just a different way to view it.

not sure I would apply the word "theory" as in your context, yet, it could apply.

in any case, Nadir should have a good starting point from which to correct the situation.


Jaime

 

[Snagger]

For my tuppence worth, having had a vehicle that used to overheat even with a brand new rad, thermostat, hoses and water pump in it, there have been many good recommendations on here.

Viscous fans tend to fail seized, ie locked to their shaft, so would normally provide plenty of cooling and would be running at high vehicle speeds when the ram airflow through the rad has cooled their hub and should have caused them to disengage. However, just because the normal mode of failure is to seize, that desn't preclude a free-spining hot viscous hub, so it's worth checking that the hub stiffense correctly when hot.

Cleaning out the entire cooling system is very important, not only the rad itself. I used a warm caustic soda solution to remove deposits from my block and rad, and i think it may be that which ended the overheating problem.

Electric fans could help, but they shouldn't be necessary if the original viscous fan is fitted - that fan has enormous capacity.

R LeFebvre's (Rob?) comment about the fan shroud is very important. With the fan removed, ram airflow on the motorway may be improved, but the fan is made very inefficient and will struggle to pull air through th rad at low vehicle speed, the airflow taking the course of least resistance from around the rad before passing through the fan. If the shroud has been removed, refitting it could make a huge difference.

Engine breathing: Exhausts don't just affect power and torque - they affect engine temperatures too. At the same time as I caustic flushed my engine (2.5nad), I also fitted the correct size 2" exhaust, replacing the earlier SIII exhaust. It's possible that this had the main cooling effect, rather than the flushing - having been done simultaneously, I'll never know. So, a dented, split or blocked exhaust could be the cause.

Coolant composition is also very important, with plain water or diluted solutions coping less well than those with water wetters or antifreeze.

I hope you get to the bottom of it, whatever the cause is.

 

[sven]

Another thing to check is the space between the radiator and AC condenser. Leaves and all sorts of junk collect inside there and block the airflow. Check it before you wreck it.

 

[michaelgroves]

again, interesting to me as I see you live in the UK.

from my US engr. viewpoint, the problem is the vehicle overheats.

the solution could be any combination of what Musky recommended.

guess its just a different way to view it.

not sure I would apply the word "theory" as in your context, yet, it could apply.

in any case, Nadir should have a good starting point from which to correct the situation.


Jaime

From your US engineering viewpoint, the problem is that the engine overheats? I think it was obvious from the context that I was referring to the causative problem (what is making the truck overheat?), not the symptomatic problem, which is known to all of us.

And yes, it could be entirely or partially due to any of the things musky mentioned. Or some other thingss that other people have mentioned.

As I say, my post wasn't discounting any hypothesis, it was pointing out that they are all hypotheses. (Hence, incidentally, my use of inverted commas whenever I refer to "theories").

_________________________
A chimp can ride a motorcycle

 

[muskyman]

LOL...man you are really full of yourself.

I posted basic common information about cooling systems and some specifics as they relate to land rovers to try and help the OP with his cooling issues.

this rant by you just once again shows how you want so bad to be seen as "the expert" here.

your ego seems to be getting the better of you, I never mentioned word one about fan shrouds , wind tunnels or destroyer driveshafts.

yes I can clearly see it is my attitude thats the problem here.

 

[michaelgroves]

I posted basic common information about cooling systems and some specifics as they relate to land rovers to try and help the OP with his cooling issues.

You did, and it was good advice. But you started by trying to add a twist to Hank's little knife, implying that Rob's contribution was rubbish because he's just an engineer. And the stuff in your sig, which I notice you've now changed, but the implication is the same.

Just about every time Rob contributes to any thread, you and Hank make snide comments. If you disagree with him, that's ok - I often do. I just say why, and sometimes one of us changes our mind, and sometimes we just agree to differ. That's the way adults discuss things.

 

[muskyman]

Viscous fans tend to fail seized, ie locked to their shaft, so would normally provide plenty of cooling and would be running at high vehicle speeds when the ram airflow through the rad has cooled their hub and should have caused them to disengage. However, just because the normal mode of failure is to seize, that desn't preclude a free-spining hot viscous hub, so it's worth checking that the hub stiffense correctly when hot.

.

just to redirect this thread back on track...

I have seen only a few that have siezed fully and the unfortunate exploded fan that often comes with that. I have seen lots that have a clutch that spins with almost no resistance when the engine is up to full temp. I would say that just about every truck with 125000 of so miles seems to suffer from a weak fan clutch. I wonder if the environment they lived in have something to do with it?

the most common thing that grabs my attention is hearing a auxillary fan kick in when a truck is sitting idleing on the trail. When I hear this I tell the owner to shut down and pop the hood and more often then not the fan is still spinning free even after the engine has shut down...time for a new clutch !

this is is really simple test to see the condition of the clutch .

 

[ntsqd]

yes I can clearly see it is my attitude thats the problem here.

So can I.

I really don't care who suggests what proves to be the solution to the OP's problem. I don't care if it was posted by an Engineer or by an experienced mechanic.

What I care about is that the problem gets fixed with the least possible effort and aggravation to the OP.

 

[sinuhexavier]

The reality is that some of these new members from "other" sites really do know what they are talking about, and we can genuinely benefit from their experience. We do, after all, own Land Rovers

If we show some respect for their experience (actual, on their backs on the trail, in the mud, replacing a radiator experience), then they will likely respect the more conservative rules of our forum.

I'm glad this was said...

I have had two instances in the past two weeks that I was in a location where my computer did not work, or I could not find the info I needed easily.

One call I made was to Steve Rupp, unfortunately he did not know the answer to the question, but he happened to be sitting right next to Muskyman in a fishing boat. Now not only did Muskyman know the answer to my question, he knew the part numbers from the middle of a lake.

On a second occasion I was in the parking lot of the Autozone in Prescott and needed the part number for a viscous fan clutch. I called Marc Olivares who quicl=kly had the part number for me, saving me a trip to a dealer and about $150.

Calling a spade a spade is just that, and should not be considered a personal attack or flaming. The truth is we rely on these trucks sometimes very far away from help and misleading or unsubstantiated information could really put a world of hurt on someone.

The integrity of this site rely on those checks and balances.

 

[Steve Rupp]

So can I.

I really don't care who suggests what proves to be the solution to the OP's problem. I don't care if it was posted by an Engineer or by an experienced mechanic.

What I care about is that the problem gets fixed with the least possible effort and aggravation to the OP.

Until a wrench is turned on that truck and he comes back with update I think it's ok that the brainstorming continues.

 

[ntsqd]

Until a wrench is turned on that truck and he comes back with update I think it's ok that the brainstorming continues.

Agreed. It is OK to disagree with someone. Might actually be preferred on occasion as ideas come to light that might not have otherwise been exposed. That is a healthy discourse.

But disagreeing with someone and making sideways insulting remarks etc. to or about them are two very different things, and the latter is not healthy or desirable.
As Joaquin Suave said some time ago, "More wag, less bark."

 

[Geo14cux]

I'm glad this was said...

I have had two instances in the past two weeks that I was in a location where my computer did not work, or I could not find the info I needed easily.

One call I made was to Steve Rupp, unfortunately he did not know the answer to the question, but he happened to be sitting right next to Muskyman in a fishing boat. Now not only did Muskyman know the answer to my question, he knew the part numbers from the middle of a lake.

On a second occasion I was in the parking lot of the Autozone in Prescott and needed the part number for a viscous fan clutch. I called Marc Olivares who quicl=kly had the part number for me, saving me a trip to a dealer and about $150.

Calling a spade a spade is just that, and should not be considered a personal attack or flaming. The truth is we rely on these trucks sometimes very far away from help and misleading or unsubstantiated information could really put a world of hurt on someone.

The integrity of this site rely on those checks and balances.

Ah there is a brain behind the lens...LOL Well put!

 

[michaelgroves]

I'm glad this was said...

...

Calling a spade a spade is just that, and should not be considered a personal attack or flaming. The truth is we rely on these trucks sometimes very far away from help and misleading or unsubstantiated information could really put a world of hurt on someone.

The integrity of this site rely on those checks and balances.

Of course what Scott said is good sense.



However, I trust this isn't the kind of thing you mean when you refer to "checks and balances" that the integrity of this site depends on:

Did the truck originally have any radiator ducting, and if so, is it still in place?

I've seen many people with cars remove it for various reasons, often because of fitting new bumpers, and then have cooling problems while stationary. All the radiators and fans in the world won't help if the air is being drawn through the rad, heated up, then moves back up front to be drawn back through the cooling package again.

Yes, it's true that pure water cools better than a glycol mix. However, I don't think I'd trust pure water with WW in my Rover engine.

Do you even know what a Land Rover looks like?

Is Rob's the kind of life-threatening misinformation are you referring to? There might be threads where your comments do apply, but to make them on this particular thread where the boot has been on the other foot, is just pouring oil onto the fire.

Please - don't for a moment suggest that Scott was endorsing the style of "debate" that's been happening, as his last line makes absolutely clear.

This also does not change the rules of ExPo, where flaming and personal attacks are not permitted.

 

[Snagger]

just to redirect this thread back on track...

I have seen only a few that have siezed fully and the unfortunate exploded fan that often comes with that. I have seen lots that have a clutch that spins with almost no resistance when the engine is up to full temp. I would say that just about every truck with 125000 of so miles seems to suffer from a weak fan clutch. I wonder if the environment they lived in have something to do with it?

the most common thing that grabs my attention is hearing a auxillary fan kick in when a truck is sitting idleing on the trail. When I hear this I tell the owner to shut down and pop the hood and more often then not the fan is still spinning free even after the engine has shut down...time for a new clutch !

this is is really simple test to see the condition of the clutch .

You could be right that local conditions affect the failure type. I've had two viscous fan failures myself, both where the hub seized up and provided more cooling effort than was required. Most other fairlure locally seem to be the same, but as I said, that wouldn't preclude the possibility of a failure leaving the fan undriven when it was required, which seems to be the more common failure you have seen.

Anyway, it sounds like you have a similar view - that the viscous fan should be entirely capable of providing all the cooling needed if it's working correctly. I had to replace the viscous fan on my Discovery 200Tdi engine when I fitted it to my 109 because of it's position behind the front cross member and its proximity to the front brake lines, replacing it with anb electric fan, but I was loathe to do it. I havce far more confidence in the big engine driven fan than these litlle, weedy electric things, but I had no choice.

I have heard of people using cable ties to secure the fan rotor to the viscous hub, after a failure leading to the loss of fan drive, as a temporary "bush repair" with a fair degree of success.