Indecision, the (Ford) Used Diesel Market and the Year 2021 - Need a sanity check

[slepe67]

Hey everyone,

I'm in the market for a used truck. Not to seem rude up front, but Im only interested in Ford only.

I'm mainly debating between F250/F350 with 7.3L (New Body Style) or 6.7L (2015/2016-ish).

Backstory.

In 2012, I bought a 1995 F250 Extended Cab (4x4, 7.3L w/225,000 miles). I went through the OBS front to back and replaced/repaired all fluids, fuel hoses, belts, hoses, brakes, brake hoses, shocks, u-joints, etc. All the "expendables" I could think of. I towed a 7,000 lb 5th wheel from Florida to Montana and didn't think twice about it. I didn't have a single issue.

In 2018, I bought a 2015 F250 Platinum and gave the OBS to my oldest son. He still has it & wont give it back! LOL

In 2019, the 40,000 mile Platinum developed a slight transmission leak, which was replaced under warranty. After finding out how much that could have cost me with no warranty, I got spooked and immediately traded the Platinum in for...a 2016 F150 Eco Boost Lariat. Instant Buyers remorse. I loved that Platinum...

While the EcoBoost is a VERY nice, low-mileage truck...it's not a diesel, and it's really too nice to use for a work truck. (Disclaimer: I've been very fortunate with work lately, and Im doing better than many in the wake of COVID. I dont want to sound like Im complaining about having too nice of a truck. This is definitely a nice "problem" to have. Believe me, I've been so broke I couldn't buy gas or food, so...)

Today.

What do I want from this truck? Dependability. Ruggedness. Camping (with vintage Four Wheel Camper in bed). Infrequent 5th wheel RV or horse trailer towing, hauling hay, hunting, dirt bike/atv hauling. Most driving will be 60% city / 40% highway, central Montana.

Plans for the truck? Potentially add an aluminum flatbed, a 2-1/2" Old Man EMU suspension, and some 35s. I wont be using it to blast down fire roads, but I will lug down them. (I have a dirt bike for speed runs.)

I can not make up my mind on what I want.

New Truck:
Pro: No stress about mechanical state. Just drive it!
Pro: Warranty
Pro: So dang NICE!
Con: Tens of thousands more than a used truck
Con: Cant modify until warranty expires
Con: Very expensive to repair with no warranty

Old Truck (I have a pretty good idea how to sniff out tuned/race trucks, or abused trucks, but sometimes you never know)
Pro: It's a 7.3 Powerstroke (usually very reliable)
Pro: Way cheaper than a new truck (purchase price and parts)
Pro: Aftermarket & Internet forums have found ways to improve outdated/flawed systems
Con: No warranty
Con: It's a 7.3 Powerstroke (cant verify past care-taking or use/abuse)
Con: Prices are skyrocketing, and all over the place. Hard to determine value of a decent truck due to current price trends.
Con: A "low mileage" truck lately is about 117,000 miles ($20,000). Most in my research average about 202,000 miles ($16,000) up to 240,000 ($19,000). I wont look at anything over 275K. Is that foolish thinking?

A few questions that have risen since my recent search began:

1. Should I be leery of a seemingly nice truck with 350-390,000 miles on the odometer, but has a new engine? Why sell after spending all that money?
   1. Im aware of looking for water in oil, blow-by from oil filler cap, fuel in coolant, leaking fuel/oil systems, etc
2. When folks replace engines, is it standard practice to replace turbo, HPOP, etc?
3. Ive seen several trucks between Seattle and Denver with 20,000 miles on rebuilt transmissions. Not 15,000 or 30,000. 20,000. Makes me wonder...
4. What are your thoughts about buying trucks with lift kits? I'm eyeing one now with a 6-inch lift, and some fancy/too-flashy, city-slicker aluminum wheels (My son will want those. LOL). I'll remove the lift...

Anyways, sorry to ramble on so much, Im just torn on the new vs old debate. Dependability is really my main concern.

Thanks for any constructive feedback!

 

[Pnwfullsize]

You cant really beat old diesels if you want diesel. In my mind, the pro of having a warranty on a new diesel isn't that huge since i would constantly worry about emissions issues from some of the horror stories I've heard from people. I like having a newer vehicle, and i like having a warranty. I ditched my diesel for a gas 3/4 ton.

 

[displacedtexan]

The bolt pattern on the wheels is different from your son's truck.

I wouldn't be scared of a truck with a quality lift (if you want a lift).

I don't like the 7.3s, gutless and somewhat finicky.

I'd be leary of most people who claim a new engine or transmission.

 

[slepe67]

You cant really beat old diesels if you want diesel. In my mind, the pro of having a warranty on a new diesel isn't that huge since i would constantly worry about emissions issues from some of the horror stories I've heard from people. I like having a newer vehicle, and i like having a warranty. I ditched my diesel for a gas 3/4 ton.

I hear you on that. No EGR, DEF, only one fuel filter, ability to run whatever (legal) diesel fuel I can find, etc.

Since you ditched your diesel for the gas truck, any regrets? I enjoy having 15+ mpg aand loads of power. It gets pretty windy in Montana (40-70 mph is not uncommon) during the winter and spring. Fuel economy usually tanks that time of year. My EcoBoost get about 14-15 during the bad days.

Again, the truck could probably become my daily driver, so Im trying see if I can have my cake and eat it too. Or, keep the EcoBoost and buy a "work truck".

Thanks for the reply!

The bolt pattern on the wheels is different from your son's truck.

I wouldn't be scared of a truck with a quality lift (if you want a lift).

I don't like the 7.3s, gutless and somewhat finicky.

I'd be leary of most people who claim a new engine or transmission.

Bolt patterns: I spaced that out completely, but he is wanting to upgrade to solid front axle, and wheels are one of the things holding him back. $$$$

As far as the lift goes...I guess I'd have to see what was installed. End state would be an Old Man EMU lift. I dont need to "rock crawl", but a lot of areas I go to demand some sort of suspension travel.

I dont disagree with you about the 7.3s. I guess they can be considered gutless compared to the newer engines, but I cant say that they dont pay for themselves over time.

I guess if it has new engine/trans, detailed receipts would be in order before even considering a purchase. But again, if a guy put that much money into a truck recently, why turn right around and sell it?

Thanks for your reply. More points to ponder.

 

[slepe67]

More info to help confuse me more.

What will happen sooner... a Ford Gas vs Diesel dilema

I'm debating between the Ford 7.3 Godzilla gas and 6.7 diesel engines for an F350 Tremor (only in a super crew, short bed) to be built out with a flatbed popup camper. Eventually I want to take it internationally, but I know the ULSD becomes an issue with the 6.7. The 7.3 requires only 87...

expeditionportal.com

 

[displacedtexan]

Does OME make Super Duty lifts? I'd be fairly excited about one with a Carli system. But the type of owner who slaps a Rough Country on...

I don't hate the 7. 3s, but I definitely don't love them. I've had a couple.

As far as why people sell one they recently dumped a bunch of money into... I don't understand that either. I know my truck isn't an investment, but I'm sure not trying to throw money away! Detailed receipts would definitely make a difference though. I'd at least feel confident in what it is.

 

[Stormhammer]

Why not a little of both? There's plenty of just out of warranty/at the edge 2015-2019 Super Duties that you can just delete ( at the least remove the EGR system, which is the largest culprit, and increase MPG! )

Now if you want the ultra luxury Lariats, at least the 17+ still fetch mid-40s at minimum - I found the avg to be in the 50s with around 80k on the clock. You will find the odd Platinum on sale too in the 50s.

Or, an F150 Powerstroke? That is always an option too, depending on load etc.

 

[grizzlypath]

Why not a little of both? There's plenty of just out of warranty/at the edge 2015-2019 Super Duties that you can just delete ( at the least remove the EGR system, which is the largest culprit, and increase MPG! )

Don't quote me on this, but I believe deleting the EGR system can technically be illegal, but that aside reselling a vehicle without it could be extremely problematic if people need it to pass emissions or something and they can cost a lot to add in prior to selling. If you do remove it, stash it away in a shed somewhere!

 

[Pnwfullsize]

I hear you on that. No EGR, DEF, only one fuel filter, ability to run whatever (legal) diesel fuel I can find, etc.

Since you ditched your diesel for the gas truck, any regrets? I enjoy having 15+ mpg aand loads of power. It gets pretty windy in Montana (40-70 mph is not uncommon) during the winter and spring. Fuel economy usually tanks that time of year. My EcoBoost get about 14-15 during the bad days.

Again, the truck could probably become my daily driver, so Im trying see if I can have my cake and eat it too. Or, keep the EcoBoost and buy a "work truck".

I have no regrets switching to gas. I went with a power wagon, and while the fuel mileage is pretty bad, the tank size is my biggest complaint. I would look into a gas superduty if i were you. Maybe the new 7.3 motor, maybe a tremor.

 

[cobro92]

Don't quote me on this, but I believe deleting the EGR system can technically be illegal, but that aside reselling a vehicle without it could be extremely problematic if people need it to pass emissions or something and they can cost a lot to add in prior to selling. If you do remove it, stash it away in a shed somewhere!

Yes. It is illegal pretty much everywhere. And it will make it nearly impossible to sell the truck. In my opinion it’s not worth it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AbleGuy]

Don't quote me on this, but I believe deleting the EGR system can technically be illegal, but that aside reselling a vehicle without it could be extremely problematic if people need it to pass emissions or something and they can cost a lot to add in prior to selling. If you do remove it, stash it away in a shed somewhere!

This EGR, etc., delete is an issue that more folks might want to pay more attention to, even though it’s been a popular mod. I read recently of both the feds and various states cracking down on the enforcement of ‘illegal’ mods to diesel emissions systems, with increasingly painful penalties being assessed. In one article, it was mentioned that these investigations and enforcements were primarily focusing on repair shops and kits sellers...for now. But, btw, that means they likely are getting the customer lists from the shops and suppliers they’ve gone after.

(And no, I’m not including links as I didn’t save the articles, and no I’m not interested in derailing this thread with arguments about the over reach of big government and personal stories of you guys who’ve done these deletes.. there’s already plenty online about this).

Delete,don’t delete, it’s up to you...I’m just saying, be aware of the growing enforcement of these violations and the increasing penalties of the same before you decide which path you want to take.

 

[AbleGuy]

Anyway, to get back to the questions you asked...

A few questions that have risen since my recent search began:

1. Should I be leery of a seemingly nice truck with 350-390,000 miles on the odometer, but has a new engine? Why sell after spending all that money? As you no doubt have already considered, The engine replacement does nothing for all of the wear and tear on all the high mileage running gear.
2. When folks replace engines, is it standard practice to replace turbo, HPOP, etc? No help here, but I’d guess that’s a very individual decision based on intelligence, budget, and the conditions of those, and whether the work was done just for re-sale prep of for to meet the concerns of the owners.
3. Ive seen several trucks between Seattle and Denver with 20,000 miles on rebuilt transmissions. Not 15,000 or 30,000. 20,000. Makes me wonder...I’d wonder too, about what kind of driving was done and what the prior use of a truck was that killed the tranny, what they’d been hauling or carrying, etc. But did you mean trucks with low mileage that had already replaced the trannies (which would seem to be a bigger concern) or hi mileage trucks with replaced trannies that had only 20k-30k on those replaced units?
4. What are your thoughts about buying trucks with lift kits? I'm eyeing one now with a 6-inch lift, and some fancy/too-flashy, city-slicker aluminum wheels... I'll remove the lift...My rule of thumb is that the flashier the trucks, the more abusive the drivers might have been in their show off driving use of it, based on witnessing that kind of overly exuberant Ya Hoo driving by drivers of the same, just sayin...

 

[Regcabguy]

Don't quote me on this, but I believe deleting the EGR system can technically be illegal, but that aside reselling a vehicle without it could be extremely problematic if people need it to pass emissions or something and they can cost a lot to add in prior to selling. If you do remove it, stash it away in a shed somewhere!

Against Federal law. You can't find deletion equipment advertised out there. Tuners without CARB or federal certification are next. A shop I know of kept the egr coolers and chucked the other 4th gen deleted items for fear of unannounced inspections.

 

[AbleGuy]

from Hemmings motor news, 2020....some pretty darn big fines have been assessed and this push is growing ..

EPA launches crackdown on emissions defeat device makers
After finding dozens of aftermarket parts companies in violation of the Clean Air Act for selling emissions defeat devices last year, the Environmental Protection Agency has announced that it will step up enforcement against such companies and clamp down on any aftermarket parts designed to bypass emissions controls, whether intended for on- or off-road use.

The announcement came after the EPA reached its most recent settlement with an aftermarket parts seller, in which it found Punch It Performance and Tuning out of Florida to have sold more than 20,000 devices that "included hardware components and electronic tuning software, known as 'tunes,' that hack into and reprogram a motor vehicle’s electronic control module to alter engine performance and enable the removal of filters, catalysts and other critical emissions controls that reduce air pollution."

The owners of Punch It Performance and Tuning, who dissolved the companysometime after the EPA's investigation began in July 2015, were ordered to pay a civil penalty of $850,000 and surrender all software and source code they used to create the devices in question, according to the EPA. Punch It Performance appeared to focus largely on diesel-related products, including EGR-delete tunes.

"EPA will vigorously pursue and prosecute companies who attempt to circumvent emission controls that are required to reduce air pollution," Susan Bodine, the EPA's assistant administrator for enforcement and compliance assurance, said in a statement. "This case illustrates why stopping the manufacture, sale, and installation of aftermarket defeat devices is an EPA National Compliance Initiative."

Some of the other aftermarket companies that the EPA has pursued enforcement action against over the last year also specialized in tunes and other products for diesel engines. For selling tunes, largely for heavy-duty diesel engines, Performance Diesel Inc. was ordered to pay a civil penalty of $1.1 million in September; for selling catalytic converter-delete aftermarket exhaust systems, California-based MagnaFlow was ordered to pay a $612,849 penalty in March; and for selling catalytic converter-delete aftermarket exhaust systems, Nevada-based JAMO Performance Exhaust was ordered to pay a $10,000 penalty in August.

In addition, the EPA secured settlements against a number of companies that sold parts for gasoline-engine vehicles over the last year, among them Nevada-based Flowmaster, which paid a $270,000 penalty in March; California-based OBX Racing Sports, which paid a $25,000 penalty in April; California-based Weistec Engineering, which paid an $8,500 penalty in March; and California-based APEX Integration, which paid a $5,000 penalty in August. All were for selling either tunes or catalytic converter-delete exhaust components.

In all, the EPA secured settlements against 42 companies in 2019, more than in any one year over the past decade and a 40-percent increase over 2018. Since 2010, the EPA has secured settlements against 298 companies for Clean Air Act violations involving vehicles and engines.

According to the EPA, its National Compliance Initiative, which "will focus on stopping the manufacture, sale, and installation of defeat devices on vehicles and engines used on public roads as well as on nonroad vehicles and engines," is slated to run from 2020 through 2023, though the August and September enforcement actions listed above were considered part of the initiative.

 

[tacollie]

The delete issue depends where you live. There is are large section of the country where its preferred for a truck to be deleted. I know 2 people that delete trucks this year and they had no trouble finding parts. One of them sold a deleted truck. The buyer was glad it was deleted. I think it'll be a long time before deleted trucks are off the road.

I am not a huge fan of the 7.3 power stroke. If the OP wants one I would spend the money and find in better condition. They are all old now and are likely to need some work. A week maintained one is worth the money in my opinion. Personally if I was set on diesel I would get a 6.7. The motor and truck are more modern. A bonus is the random parts that aren't worn out from age.