Done - I just need to find a better description...any suggestion?
years, regardless of this year, next year, will they be here in 5 years
If you buy a new Bronco regardless of its success Ford will be here in 20 years.
Grenadier advertises a HD 4x4 yet builds a luxurious SUV..... with a suspect transfer case.
It is way more overlander than most of us want. At a bargain basement price. Where will it be in 10 years.
Only what I have read,,,, while it has 1 ton axles some say it has 1/4 ton transfer case....
someone should dig deeper........ I have tried but have not found the spec on anything
It has 6 lug axles so I'd guess 1/2T (at best) and it would seem that putting 1T axles on this would be massively overbuilding for intended use.Only what I have read,,,, while it has 1 ton axles some say it has 1/4 ton transfer case....
someone should dig deeper........ I have tried but have not found the spec on anything
'Should be', I agree, but the same people saying this is a heavy duty world class expedition vehicle are the same ones saying Jeeps are not.Yea it's a bummer they aren't using a beefier variant, but the 8HP50 is in the JL and JT so it should be just fine.
'Should be', I agree, but the same people saying this is a heavy duty world class expedition vehicle are the same ones saying Jeeps are not.
When you get down to the nuts and bolts, how wouldn't a Jeep Wrangler with the same trans be better or just as good? Based on the price of the Jeep, upgrade axles to HD housings / D44 variants (if it doesn't come with them) or possibly better yet D60's. You have a more simple platform, proven, with world class supply chain that can be fixed anyplace and the engine is a simple V6 with no turbo's and no vanos.
Alfa Romeo Giulia, Alfa Romeo Stelvio, BMW 1 Series (F20 LCI), BMW 2 Series M240i (F22), BMW 3 Series (F30 LCI), BMW 5 Series (F10/F11/G30/31), BMW 7 Series (G11), Dodge Charger Pursuit V6 (2021–), Dodge Durango V6 (2017–), Jeep Wrangler/Wrangler Unlimited (JL), Jeep Gladiator (JT), BMW X3 20D (G01), BMW X3 30i (G01), BMW X3 M40i (G01)
Item | Jeep | Grenadier |
Construction | Body on Frame | Body on Frame |
Axles | Solid, lockers in some packages, Dana (variable robustness depending on package) | Solid, lockers in some/most packages, Cararro - specialize in off-road axles (tractors and heavy equipment; same axles in every Grenadier) |
Suspension | 4-link long-travel coil sprung suspension | 5-link Long-travel coil-sprung suspension |
Drivetrain | Varies from the near-bulletproof Pentastar to the problem-prone Diesel. Highly variable torque and HP depending on selection. Some serviceability issues across the board but nothing that prevents most folks from working on it. | BMW B57/58 - unproven in this platform. Reasonably good reputation in other platforms except when it comes time to do big maintenance jobs. TBD if it's shade-tree friendly or not but the publication of workshop manuals that are included with purchase is encouraging of a shade-tree friendly ethos. |
General Serviceability | Chrysler Dealers and independent mechanics - no proprietary software, however sometimes OEM parts are a challenge, but there is almost always an aftermarket alternative for everything from hood latches to drivetrain components. | Partnership with Bosch-certified garages which are worldwide. TBD on how this all works. Suggestion that serviceability will be high with service manual availability and CAD-IT partnership offering 3D "how to" repair instructions to end-users. |
Commercial Option | Military - J8 (Based on JK frame). Not available to general public, otherwise no commercial variant available. | Commercial and Consumer variants available; only changes are interior layout. Body, drivetrain, etc. is the same between commercial and consumer variants. |
Payload | under 900 lbs (for Rubicon package) to around 1300 for the Sport package | 1700 lbs starting payload. |
Wading Depth | 850 mm | 800 mm |
Roof Load Rating | N/A - need specialized aftermarket roof rack that bolts to roll bar or frame. Cannot equip rain-gutter racks due to cracking fibreglass. | 750 lbs, no need for roofrack, integrated handles and tie-downs into the roof. Rain-gutter racks A-OK opening up variety of roof load options (Racks, bars, etc.) |
Dual Battery | N/A | Factory option |
Sunroof | Freedom Top | Safari Panels |
Accessories | Jeep is the LEGO of the car world - sky is the limit. | Grenadier has the slick utility belts that'll hold a couple hundred pounds on a door. Also plenty of early collaboration with the aftermarket (ARB, Alucab, Ironman4x4) already underway. |
Can I get a colour on the frame? | No, it's black and boring and probably reduces overall performance by 50 horsepower | I can get a red one which means it'll be better off road and faster on the highways. |
I guess the issue I have is you hear Scott in the vid say things like "axles built by company the specialize in tractors" and "very robust ZF 8 speed transmission".....based on what? It's a bit disingenuous and misleading (IMO). Based on Scott's background I would have expected something like:While I agree with your overall sentiment - show us the specs (and they have - more in a moment) - but I'm not so sure about that logic on the trans, Nick. The transmission going into the Grenadier is the 3rd gen version of ZF's rear-drive platform; the second gen of the same kit was used in all these rigs:
Safe to say that I wouldn't compare a BMW 5 series to a Jeep Wrangler in terms of expedition vehicles, even though they use the same transmission.
A better question is - how often does the ZF drivetrain fail in JLs and Gladiators? By my assessment, I would classify both of those rigs as "light duty" off-road vehicles. If the ZF was failing regularly in them, I'd have no faith of having it in a more medium- to heavy-duty vehicle (I would class the gren as "medium duty"). But, there doesn't appear to be any major issues with the ZF running gear in the Gladiator or the JL, therefore we can conclude that it works good in that "light duty" application. So then, how will it fare in a "medium duty" application? We can only look at the numbers so far, which claim that the ZF unit in some configurations can handle over 700 foot pounds of torque (or as little as 162 foot pounds, so there is some variability to the platform - the one going in the Gren looks to sit at just shy of 400 foot pounds of torque). In short, I don't think the transmission & transfer case will be an issue in this vehicle given how reliable it's been in other rigs.
And on the note of specs - there's a video posted on Expo today by our very own Scott Brady:
Detailed Walk-Around :: Ineos Grenadier Trialmaster for Overlanding - Expedition Portal
For this video, we dive deep on the Grenadier's specifications and components, reviewing the drivetrain, traction devices, features, and more.expeditionportal.com
Taken from the text below the article, as well as a few other key details I've been keeping track of for my needs, here's a quick feature comparison between the Gren and the JL:
Item Jeep Grenadier Construction Body on Frame Body on Frame Axles Solid, lockers in some packages, Dana (variable robustness depending on package) Solid, lockers in some/most packages, Cararro - specialize in off-road axles (tractors and heavy equipment; same axles in every Grenadier) Suspension 4-link long-travel coil sprung suspension 5-link Long-travel coil-sprung suspension Drivetrain Varies from the near-bulletproof Pentastar to the problem-prone Diesel. Highly variable torque and HP depending on selection. Some serviceability issues across the board but nothing that prevents most folks from working on it. BMW B57/58 - unproven in this platform. Reasonably good reputation in other platforms except when it comes time to do big maintenance jobs. TBD if it's shade-tree friendly or not but the publication of workshop manuals that are included with purchase is encouraging of a shade-tree friendly ethos. General Serviceability Chrysler Dealers and independent mechanics - no proprietary software, however sometimes OEM parts are a challenge, but there is almost always an aftermarket alternative for everything from hood latches to drivetrain components. Partnership with Bosch-certified garages which are worldwide. TBD on how this all works. Suggestion that serviceability will be high with service manual availability and CAD-IT partnership offering 3D "how to" repair instructions to end-users. Commercial Option Military - J8 (Based on JK frame). Not available to general public, otherwise no commercial variant available. Commercial and Consumer variants available; only changes are interior layout. Body, drivetrain, etc. is the same between commercial and consumer variants. Payload under 900 lbs (for Rubicon package) to around 1300 for the Sport package 1700 lbs starting payload. Wading Depth 850 mm 800 mm Roof Load Rating N/A - need specialized aftermarket roof rack that bolts to roll bar or frame. Cannot equip rain-gutter racks due to cracking fibreglass. 750 lbs, no need for roofrack, integrated handles and tie-downs into the roof. Rain-gutter racks A-OK opening up variety of roof load options (Racks, bars, etc.) Dual Battery N/A Factory option Sunroof Freedom Top Safari Panels Accessories Jeep is the LEGO of the car world - sky is the limit. Grenadier has the slick utility belts that'll hold a couple hundred pounds on a door. Also plenty of early collaboration with the aftermarket (ARB, Alucab, Ironman4x4) already underway. Can I get a colour on the frame? No, it's black and boring and probably reduces overall performance by 50 horsepower I can get a red one which means it'll be better off road and faster on the highways.
So in a lot of areas the Gren and the Jeep are comparable, but in a couple of areas -- roof loads and payload -- the Grenadier walks away from the Wrangler in their "off the lot" trim. The Jeep never really walks away from the Grenadier based just on specs we can confirm so far, and in the areas where it might run away, we need a few years of real-world use to know for sure. That's not to shame the jeep - it's a great vehicle and I still miss mine! But the Gren is presenting a bit of a different option on the market, and for a lot of common Overlanding applications - especially with multiple adults in one vehicle - the Gren is looking to be the better bet on paper. It addresses a lot of the shortcomings of the Wrangler without sacrificing much in terms of on-paper capability (i.e. approach, departure, wading, etc.).
I guess the issue I have is you hear Scott in the vid say things like "axles built by company the specialize in tractors" and "very robust ZF 8 speed transmission".....based on what? It's a bit disingenuous and misleading (IMO). Based on Scott's background I would have expected something like:
"the company building the axles has a reputation in the industrial segment and based on my conversation with IG engineers they are designed for heavy field use which aligns with my visual inspection"
and...
"while the transmission is the same one used across lighter duty applications by BMW we were assured by IG that the transmission meets very stringent offroad duty cycles..."
I highly doubt if he was reviewing a Jeep he'd use those same sorts of words, "highly robust proven Jeep transmission" <- never spoken by any car reviewer.
On that subject of Trans - the HP51 is as I stated, the HP50 are in the rigs you state and the 850RE are the ones used in the Jeeps....your guess is as good as mine as to what the differences are, based on what you see of forums, the 850RE has some internal tweaks like added clutch packs.
Overall it's a cool rig, I'd 100% rock one but what I do not like one bit is the glassing over of decisions without data to support decisions, especially in a market full of guys that like details....it breaks some of the rules of known 4x4 manuf. from Toyota/LR/Merc/Nissan (aka not using light duty parts on a heavy duty rig).....which is OK, but you lose a bit of credibility in my mind when you try to compare yourself with them, which IG is doing.
BMW 1 Series (F20), BMW 2 Series M235i (F22), BMW 3 Series (F30), BMW 5 Series (F10/F11), BMW 6 Series (F06/F12/F13), BMW 7 Series (F01/F02), BMW X3 (F25), BMW X4 (F26), BMW X5 35i (E70), BMW X5 (F15), BMW X6 (F16), Chrysler 300 V6, Chrysler 300 C, Dodge Charger V6, Dodge Challenger V6, Dodge Durango V6 (2014–2017), RAM 1500 V6 (2013–), Jaguar XE, Lancia Thema V6, Volkswagen Amarok
"highly robust proven Jeep transmission" <- never spoken by any car reviewer.