INEOS Grenadier

[gatorgrizz27]

How many Mahidra Roxors have you seen driving around with plates? Use that as your guide. It's a huge pain in the ass and as much as I don't agree with the rules they do exist

Also, the Mahindra is $16k and is a literal CJ3 with all of the engineering and tooling fully depreciated (free). That's not cheap for what you get...

If they don’t need it to be 50 state legal off the lot, there are many options. Most non-communist states have provisions to register vehicles (dirt bikes, Japanese mini trucks, golf carts, side by sides, etc), as long as they have the required safety equipment and don’t state “off road use only” on the MSO or title.

I’d love for them to tell CARB to go choke on a sausage, and let the owners register them after the fact, with a list of processes for states where it is legal to do so. If most of these things will end up being delivered with no dealer network, it wouldn’t be a huge deal as long as it didn’t scare potential buyers off.

 

[Bluest]

In the US, are there exemptions for low volume manufacturers? Grenadier are not forecasting huge volumes in total, and say they don’t need big sales to make money. Maybe there is a loophole they can use? Although! I can’t imagine US approval is much more complex than EU type approval. I’ve been following what Glickenhaus having been doing with the Boot and their sport cars andd they seem to be able to produce road legal, sophisticated vehicles at a low volume. Granted, that’s a different price point

 

[A.J.M]

There isn’t a hope in hell of that car making the claims and doing what they say for the price they claim.

That 3.0 bmw diesel has twin turbos, so will need several ecus to run it. To pass Euro 6 emissions regulations, it needs egrs, a dpf and will have adblue as well.
All that stuff is fitted to the new Defender so cheap and easily maintained in the bush it ain’t.

The next hurdle is crash regulations.
Something the old Defender NEVER SAT!
Just like they bailed from the US market in 97 because of regulations demanding side impact protection and an air bag.
19 years passed and Land Rover still never fitted those...

This has to pass NCAP crash tests, roll over tests, side impact tests, and pedestrian tests. All modern land rovers get an overall rating of 5 stars. 2018 Wrangler gets 1...
New Defender will also likely get 5 stars.

This has to sell, with no dealer network, no previous experience in making it and against the Hilux, Ranger etc.

Nope. I’ll be surprised if this pipe dream becomes reality.

 

[mpinco]

ECU's are no more expensive than a RaspberryPi + likely an external chip or 2 for I/O. In volume? Probably $20 or less. I'm sure the 'BMW package' includes a needed testing and cert for target markets.

Wrangler's with a "1-star" rating sell 20,000 to 25,000 per month.

LR with a "5-star" rating ........... sold 451 D5's last month

 

[Red90]

They have never claimed it will be cheap.

 

[plh]

In the US, are there exemptions for low volume manufacturers?

I believe so, like Icon Broncos and those similar. Limited to a few hundred (maybe less) vehicles per year. Not sure if they need to be built on US soil for that exemption thou.

edit: never mind, Icon uses the original vehicle VIN. ie: 1965 - 1977 Bronco

 

[A.J.M]

ECU's are no more expensive than a RaspberryPi + likely an external chip or 2 for I/O. In volume? Probably $20 or less. I'm sure the 'BMW package' includes a needed testing and cert for target markets.

Wrangler's with a "1-star" rating sell 20,000 to 25,000 per month.

LR with a "5-star" rating ........... sold 451 D5's last month

yup, but it’s staggeringly hypocritical to celebrate this car which will have many many ecus, and yet bemoan LR for having many in the new defender. Why does one get away with it yet the other not?
Not aimed at you personally but in general it seems to be that case.

yes, 20-25k sales in the US. They don’t sell in any volume here in the uk. Never have, never will. D5 is 12 grand overpriced at least. Which would be a contributing factor in its poor sales.

Red90, if it’s not cheap.Then what’s the point of it? Plenty of bulk volume makers have farmer spec pick ups for around £22-25k.
D Max, £22k plus vat which they can claim back, 5 year warranty or 125,000 miles.

This full idea to me screams of the 21st century Delorean, only without taking a load of cash from the government and it ending with a massive cocaine deal.

 

[mpinco]

A first gen Ford Bronco recently sold for $90K at Barret Jackson. Way overpriced but highlights that people see value in old school. IH Scouts are now $15K to $30K.

Relative simplicity sells. While a Ineos will have ECU's I highly doubt it will have 85. The Ineos? Likely less than 10 or even fewer. There is much to be said for simplicity. As complexity soars on a exponential curve, depreciation will also soar. Can you imagine keeping a 85 ECU vehicle for 20+ years? 400K miles? My 75 Scout was running strong at 400K miles after one engine refresh that only required a new cam and lifters.

I think simplicity is now perceived as a higher value long term. People may pay a premium for it.

The D5 may be 12 grand overpriced but it also missed on many levels. It's a "tweener". Tweener's usually don't sell well. "IF" there is a global recession I would expect the Discovery line to see end of life until reborn much later down the road.

 

[Al Blue4.6l]

Eh, the whole 85 ecu thing is a bit meaningless. That said, the LR3s have 25 or so - none of which are known to cause any particular problems at 15 years.

 

[Blaise]

I believe so, like Icon Broncos and those similar. Limited to a few hundred (maybe less) vehicles per year. Not sure if they need to be built on US soil for that exemption thou.

False, the ICON operates via a loophole of refurbishing an older vehicle. Thus the legality. Edit: I see you've mentioned that now.

Each ICON FJ model starts life as a vintage Toyota Land Cruiser (1960-1975). Each ICON TR starts with a 1947-53 Chevy Pick Up. Each ICON BR starts with a 1966-1975 Ford Bronco. We recycle the vintage vehicle and the original vehicle identification is maintained. This also saves tremendous industrial waste, and we are reviving vehicles most people thought were at the end of their life span! Occassionally, special projects like our Concept Cars are scratch built vehicles. In these instances, Specialty Construction Title processes are handled by the client, with our advice and the support of SEMA. While we can not be expert on Non-USA laws, we have delivered ICON to many countries, and we are happy to consult with your importer on compliance issues.

Like others have said, this is a dream and not much else IMO.

 

[plh]

A first gen Ford Bronco recently sold for $90K at Barret Jackson. Way overpriced but highlights that people see value in old school.

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[Al Blue4.6l]

False, the ICON operates via a loophole of refurbishing an older vehicle. Thus the legality. Edit: I see you've mentioned that now.



Like others have said, this is a dream and not much else IMO.

yeah, I am not aware of any way to avoid safety regulations etc. on a new (not replica) vehicle in the US through non-volume manufacture.

I'd love to be wrong, but I unfortunately agree - even if Ineos builds something in the rest of the world that is what they promise and is not exorbitantly priced, I have difficulty thinking it would come to the US. I would love to be surprised on all counts.

 

[Bluest]

Unfortunately a subscription is needed to read the full article, but the The Times is reporting that JLR have lost a legal battle to Jim Ratcliffe over the shape of the Defender.

Jaguar Land Rover loses Defender ruling against Sir Jim Ratcliffe

Jaguar Land Rover has lost an attempt to trademark the shape of its old Defender 4x4 after a long-running battle with tycoon Sir Jim Ratcliffe.Ineos boss Ratcliffe, who plans to make a new off-road

www.thetimes.co.uk

im a bit disappointed by this as I don’t think the Grenadier needs to look like a Defender to be a success. I’ve seen a computer generated model of it over the summer and my feedback then was that it looked a bit too much like a Defender.

 

[Bluest]

Link to a the story you can read in full.

Jaguar Land Rover loses Defender trademark ruling against Sir Jim Ratcliffe

Jaguar Land Rover has lost an attempt to trademark shape of its old Defender 4x4 after a long-running battle with tycoon Sir Jim Ratcliffe

www.bmmagazine.co.uk

 

[mpinco]

McGoverns 'design language' pretty much sacrificed LR IP. Disney has more Defender front end IP than LR.