utherjorge
Observer
I may be in somewhat of a Bosch desert, as you can see.
INEOS Grenadier
- Thread starter Correus
- Start date
MarcusBrody
Active member
Unrelated to the Grenadier, but you're from Warren? I'm from DuBois (originally) and had an uncle who lived in Warren. It's not exactly a well-populated part of the state but it is a great area for someone who likes to exploring. There aren't too many areas on the East Coast with as much public land and back roads to check out.
utherjorge
Observer
I didn't grow up here, but have been here for about 20 years. It's pretty nifty for exploring all sorts of things, and every now and again, you get the chance to find something cool like when the reservoir was way down last fall and you could drive around on the bottom. I also may have been able to get myself unstuck after getting myself stuck. Good times!
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
3 options at about 100 miles isn't too bad but I hear you, that's a long way to go for basic service. Hopefully they get something closer to you!
utherjorge
Observer
Generally, I agree, but if something happens and I'm non-op, suddenly 100 miles is a very big deal. Of course, I know that's how it works to live where I live.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
Often the cost of peace and quiet is steep, and it's paid in "I need XYZ and have to travel hours to get it". I grew up in a town in northern Canada that was 6 hours from the nearest movie theatre or shopping mall, so I know the feeling!
Hopefully by 2023 they will have rolled out more spaces; I read on another forum that they are planning on at least 200 locations in North America at launch.
nickw
Adventurer
But can you imagine bringing your $70k+ rig into a place like that? It's hard enough getting descent work done at proper BMW dealers who have all the special tools and tribal knowledge due to working on rigs 8 x 365.....I don't see how small non-BMW specific shops are going to be useful at all. They'll likely be able to order parts, *may* be able to run a diagnostic check and tell you what's wrong, but beyond that....I struggle with that service model. I think the reality is, there is probably going to be a BMW specialty shop 'regionally' (PNW, SW, BC, N Cali, maybe a couple in S cali, etc.) who may be the premier experts who know workarounds and specifics of dealing with the Ineos rigs...
Kudos to Ineos for figuring this out...they honestly didn't have much of an option for powerplant, not a lot of engines produced around the world....in the US it would have been easy to drop in a GM V8 + trans + tcase as a pre-engineered package but that wouldn't work overseas. Some of the Cummins diesel options are cool, but they are not a engine + trans package and are fairly unrefined.
People want expedition rigs but have 0 tolerance for old school, slow, noisy vehicles....they made a good compromise but it's far from the "Analog" vehicle they seem to be marketing as.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
I sure can imagine it! In fact, where I spent the majority of my life so far, that was the only option in town, and they were routinely far better than the "official" options in terms of getting things done and getting back to business. While parts were always a concern, skill of the mechanics rarely was; these guys worked on everything from snowmobiles to mine trucks, and for the latter case in particular, they had to get creative because a sitting truck is costing a lot of money.
The priorities are different at these shops as compared to at a dealership. The Dealership experience is pretty glitzy -- they put the plastic on the seats. The technicians who actually interact with you never have dirt on their hands, and everything is done according to a service manual procedure-- "If you get code X do procedure Y. If that doesn't work, try procedure Z. If that doesn't work, seek corporate permission to replace engine under warranty or bill customer XYZ shop hours and ABC parts". At small shops, it's more like 'There's a rattle in the left hand side for some reason, took it for a few test drives and eventually Dave remembered that his grandpappy's old Dodge had a rattle a lot like this back in 1956, so that clued us in on where to look and then Marty was able to whip up a stronger bracket for the widget mount out of some spare aluminum we had around, and I had our fabricator affix it permanently to the fender wall, so it won't move again". In the case of Ineos, we could add on - "Thank goodness this chemical company makes the service manuals available for free online. Those exploded diagrams were handy in figuring out the widget rattle. Also, they were super good on parts since there's a distribution centre in Metropolis, so your parts were on the next truck into town".
In other words these small shops tend to be a lot more outcome-focused -- which is what I personally want. My outcome is "get me back on the road safely". Dealerships tend to be process-focused; their outcome is going through all the necessary motions and steps; while that SHOULD fix your vehicle, for the most part (in my experience) they seem to be making sure they are honouring warranty obligations, staying in line with corporate edicts on how to do things, etc. Fixing the car seems more like an accidental result of the process than it is the purpose of the interaction! And god-forbid that the fix be something that is not the subject of a Service Bulletin (aka a "Bush Fix"). If that's the case, a mainstream dealership service centre isn't going to touch it (Again, in my experience - I'm sure there are some great ones out there with more flexibility).
The other perspective is that Ineos has claimed that the Grenadier was designed with "serviceability" in mind. We don't know what that looks like, but there are two scenarios I can see happening -- a mechanical issue, in which case the Ineos is pretty simple (the motor motes, the 4x4 does 4x4 things, and it's all tech that's been around for 50+ years so that's easy for anyone to work on). If it's an electronic issue, how easy is it to fix it? I'm hoping that "Serviceability" means something like "There are three ECUs, they are all mounted behind a panel on the dash. If there's a problem with one of them, you can swap them as easily as changing a fuse once you have the part". That approach, coupled with 24-hour parts availability in major markets (likely meaning sub-10 days mostly everywhere on earth), has me cautiously optimistic. But, I'll reserve judgement till I see the service manuals myself -- the point of this is serviceability is more about the design and simplicity of the machine than it is about the logo on the shirt of whoever is doing the work. 99% of car repairs are component swaps, so if those components are easy to get, and easy to swap, it will be a very serviceable car.
Now, contrast that with the New Defender - which is perhaps the polar opposite of the Ineos in terms of design, but ostensibly intended to do the same kind of thing -- that isn't serviceable at all. When TFL had their problem (a backup camera problem or something?), it was with one of the 83 control units within the vehicle. These units are stashed all over the place - behind bumpers, in the engine bay, under seats, behind the dash, etc. in fact, you might be looking right at one of the ND's processors and not know, because it wasn't (as far as I know) designed with serviceability in mind. In the TFL example, the process of fixing it at the dealership introduced NEW problems because of unintended consquences of other fixes, and that is due to the complexity of the machine. They ended up flying an engineer from the UK who STILL couldn't fix it, and thus they ended up with a whole new rig. Then, when trying to get accessories installed at a Land Rover dealer, an errant technician wrote off their second rig too by somehow cutting through the wiring harness. They finally took delivery of their third vehicle, and it took months to get a resolution. I can't imagine being in that situation on a trip; that experience would cost me my most precious commodity - my time. I know it's easy to say "Oh but that's just JLR reliability for you", but ,y concern in this case isn't actually the reliability -- I'd happy travel in an old Series Land Rover which is far less reliable than anything modern. For me, the concern is the complexity of the machine that resulted in it being essentially impossible to fix for weeks.
I'm hopeful the Ineos doesn't have this problem. Looks like we'll know in about 6-8 months as folks start taking deliveries!
nickw
Adventurer
Well the hardcore small town mechanics you speak of are ************ dudes and can work they way around dang near anything....but with these modern rigs that old school approach doesn't always work. Generally things are replaced nowadays due to cost efficiency....replacing an ECU (or multiple ECU's) or a wiring loom in many cases is cheaper and more viable that trying to fix and repair those pieces. I had a experience with my 2001 Tacoma, truck had 100k miles, the rear locker stopped working....Toyota's fix, replace the entire rear axle @ $2k + labor! I'm sure a solid indy shop could have fixed it...simple piece....but much different when it comes to removing engines that involve special processes along with specialized tools.
Before I can buy the 'simple' design philosophy of the Grenadier, I think we need to understand the mechanics a bit better. You say the 4x4 systems are simple, on paper yes, but the details matter. For instance, it has a manual tcase lever, it may very well have multiple sensors and have electric solenoids to engage, including some sort of front axle disconnect, it would surprise me if it was truly mechanical.
Tom Sheppard drove a early 2000's Gwagen and the dang thing went into 'limp home mode' out in the middle of the Sahara desert, he got out, but it was sketchy. Took multiple trips to Mercedes dealers (with proper diagnostic tools) before they figured out what was wrong....I'd question any indy shop being able to figure out issues like that.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
I 100% agree with you all the way. Most of what I've said above isn't first hand knowledge of course - it's based on what Ineos has been saying, and what I see on the 'net from others who have seen the Gren in person, but I need to understand exactly how it all works myself before I make my mind up ("Trust, but verify!"). That's why even though I won't likely be able to get one until 2023, as soon as that service manual hits the web it will be my "light reading" to pass the time. The details absolutely matter, like you said. A parallel -- the Jeep JK is known as a VERY robust 4x4 for the most part. The 4x4 system in particular is simple and strong, especially in the Rubicons. But, enter a detail -- the transfer case shifter is held in place by a plastic clip thing. This plastic detent is notorious for breaking during servicing (anytime it needs to be disconnected) which is how I learned about it. I've also heard of issues in the cold with it snapping though I did not personally experience that. The solution is easy -- keep a couple in the glove box as they are small and light, and it only takes about 30 seconds to pop one on and reconnect the transfer case shifter. But if you didn't know about the detail, you could be stranded in the back of beyond because you just didn't know to acquire the plastic clips ahead of time. So, details matter for sure -- and I have no doubt there will be some on the Grenadier. The question for me is how many, and how easy is are those details to plan for/address? Less is best, so I'm hopeful that these "details" will be minimal, but we won't know until we see how it all goes together and comes apart.
You mentioned this part though --
-- and that's kinda my point. This is a modern rig, but it's allegedly using very old school design principles, so I'm hopeful these small town guys can work their way around most of it. I suspect it will be about as close to this mark as we are likely to realistically get in this day and age. To clarify, I don't mean that other companies couldn't do a better job than Ineos at a worldwide rugged 4x4 vehicle (there may well be some contenders on the market right now); what I mean is the Venn diagram between "billionaire" and "4x4 enthusiast", which is the only reason that we are seeing this thing, is quite small. Same is true for our market, so I don't see anyone waiting in the wings to do what Ineos is trying to do (old school, rugged, tough, easy to fix 4x4 that can carry stuff), and that's why I think it's as close as we'll likely get.
Your locker story is a great example of why I generally don't love dealers over Independent shops for work on my rigs (and actually tend to do 99% of it myself) -- there are so many solutions to a broken rear locker that you'd be spoiled for choice. I've heard of some folks welding up a broken diff just to get through a trip. Some might have taken that chance to fit aftermarket lockers. Even tossing a cheap auto-locker in there would be an option (they work far better than most people give them credit for!). Or going to an open diff and keeping it in 4-high, just so you can crawl your way home with your "front arms". Swapping the whole axle sounds very much like a "I diagnosed according to the manual's defined process" solution, not a "I know how it works and found a way to fix it" solution that I mentioned in my other post (But of course I wasn't there so I don't know for sure!). That is a fairly simple system - I'd shudder to think how much that same repair would cost for the electronically controlled limited slip/locking differential in the back of a New Defender (Again, using that as a comparison because on paper it's the same as the Grenadier in terms of outcomes, but the design philosophy to get there was drastically different). Good note on the Tom Sheppard story too. Those are the questions I'm hoping Ineos can answer soon -- when this thing fails, how does it do it? Does it limp home because of too much CO2 in the exhaust? Or can it be drowned, shot at, stabbed, blown up, hit with a wrecking ball and showered in hail, sleet, snow, rain, fire and brimstone and still get you home?
I think I know what we're all hoping this vehicle is!
Mattlodi
Active member
I'm sorry i had no perceptions on how it works, even because the driver continuously stop the car to let us see how the brakes perform.
Grassland
Well-known member
Releasing manuals and tech details and procedures instead of keeping everything a secret is a good start. As well, designing things with serviceability in mind, if actually the case, is fantastic.
HVAC systems (small ones anyways) are less complicated than a motor vehicle, but that's my industry. I just replaced a heat exchanger on a newer gas furnace for the first time, and it took less time than the prior version of which I've done dozens, because manufacturing ease and future serviceability were considerations in its design. As well, the new heat exchanger sub assembly came with the required gaskets and new fasteners, not as a separate part #, AND a manual came with it as well.
If I were a vehicle mechanic, those are the sorts of things I would love to see. You can't memorize every procedure or measurement/value for even a single brands entire model line up.
Follow that with not needing to disassemble half the vehicle to do otherwise strait forward repairs, while also relying on self destructive clips and fasteners.
HVAC systems (small ones anyways) are less complicated than a motor vehicle, but that's my industry. I just replaced a heat exchanger on a newer gas furnace for the first time, and it took less time than the prior version of which I've done dozens, because manufacturing ease and future serviceability were considerations in its design. As well, the new heat exchanger sub assembly came with the required gaskets and new fasteners, not as a separate part #, AND a manual came with it as well.
If I were a vehicle mechanic, those are the sorts of things I would love to see. You can't memorize every procedure or measurement/value for even a single brands entire model line up.
Follow that with not needing to disassemble half the vehicle to do otherwise strait forward repairs, while also relying on self destructive clips and fasteners.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
No need to apologize, I wasn't sure how much info we can really glean from these events anyway as being a passenger is a lot different than being a driver. Thank you for sharing all the same. And at least we know the brakes work
@Grassland, you've nailed it. That's exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say "designed for serviceability". I can't count the number of auto parts I've installed where they call for things like new gaskets or fasteners, but they don't include them with the component. So you order what you think you need for your weekend project, and get to it, only to find you have to run back out to the auto shop for more bits which are inevitably on backorder. Same thing for accessing common service items -- I've heard rumours (and checked a YouTube vid) that the new Diesel ranger (UK model is the one I saw on YouTube) is a bit of a pain to do an oil change on - some folks are saying you gotta remove the front wheel and get in behind the wheel well to get the filter off. That's not designed for serviceability.
Todd780
OverCamper
Agreed. It was crazy how difficult it was to change the headlight bulbs on my 2015 f150. It's a 2 minute job on our Tuscon. It was a 30 second job on our old 2003 Yukon.....
nickw
Adventurer
Will be interesting to see what Ineos has done...I know the std. B58 engine has the timing chain on the rear of the engine....but who knows, maybe there are access panels and they've 'streamlined' some of the maintenance issues around engines like this.