Interesting take on vehicle modification

pith helmet

Well-known member
i am sensational? maybe. thanks. you can find humor in my post, if you are so inclined.

i don't want my family to die on the highway because some fool is going 90mph with 12" lift over 40's, but also won't tip toe around the point that these same people we have trusted with regulating 'minor' things have taken a decidedly authoritarian turn in the recent past. i am no longer in a trusting mood with either of those subsets.
 

SFP

Member
Well, time to throw my hat into this ring.

For starters I am in Canada. BC to be exact. Land of the over-lifted, 35 to 37 inch tires sticking 2"- 4" outside the fenders on city trucks. This wonderful province has some of the most beautiful back country in the world. It also has a ton of regulations on the books that rarely get enforced. I live on Vancouver Island which has tourism as the third largest sector for the economy which equals tourists all year round but especially during the warmer months.

I have had the pleasure of witnessing and being first on scene for a number of bad accidents as a result because here on the island we have winding roads with off camber tight corners at the bottom of hills, narrow mountain roads, you name it. Overloaded SUVs, people using too small of automobile to tow too big of trailer (overloaded as well) is a common sight out this way. Overloaded 30+ year old vans and SUVs that are not maintained but part of the "van-life"/tourist scene are a common sight - so are these automobiles rolled in ditches with gear spread out a kilometer down the road after said crash. 95% of these crashes are avoidable - but does local law enforcement stop and ticket said people? Almost never - when they do people complain about it and it's impact on the tourism sector. People and yeah mostly the under 35 year old crowd buy an older truck/car to go and live the lifestyle and happily spend money on camera/video gear, cool clothes, cool e-bikes - meanwhile the factory suspension (that hasn't been repaired or updated since 1989) can't take all the weight, the brakes are faded and done and they don't have much actual real world experience driving said rigs. Makes for a beautiful cocktail of ******** going sideways fast.

The city-trucks as stated previously almost never see a backroad. My roomie's boyfriend is a prime example. Brand new F-150 Sport 4x4, sitting on 35" KO2's - it gets used to goto Costco and commute to his job where it parks beside 30 other city-trucks. Hey if he wants to spend $600.00 plus a month on gas to look "cool" to his fellow co-workers that is his choice. But it is damn funny watching him pull a "snow day" with brand new KO2's because the roads are covered in snow and are slippery and every-time I bring up the topic of real winter tires he points out how his KO2's are 3 peak rated. ( sigh )

I have had to replace four windshields in ten years because the guy in front had tires sticking way outside the fenders with no mudflaps or flares. Again, who do I blame?

I have to agree with most of the article. But then the way I build up my rigs has always been inline with Aussies. I personally don't like my wheels sticking out. I try and always keep my weight down. I don't like RTT because I don't want that much weight on my roof. I doubt I will ever own anything bigger than a set of 33" tires (on my SUV/mid-sized). I also have never cared what others think of my rigs. I like the quirkier ones (LOVE my Isuzu Troopers for example). I almost always over-engineer my builds and am happy to pay a professional to do the work I don't have the skills for. As we all know, proper maintenance should also be mod number 1.

I grew up during the 70's watching folks in Land Rovers/Land Cruisers in documentaries go to all these cool places and that has stuck with me my whole life. Thank the Gods we have smartened up since then though. I grew up in a time with tall and narrow ground grabber tires were the norm for the back country. It was an era where "lifted" meant two more inches of ground clearance. So yeah maybe I am now "that old guy", but as the bumper sticker says "remember, you have to drive it back home" has truly become my back-country motto.

Maybe with people starting to use dash-cams we will see people getting ticketed for their tires throwing rocks at the cars behind them. Maybe insurance companies will finally start denying claims because people are overloaded. Maybe we will get to the spot where when search and rescue has to be deployed because dumb people did dumb things they get a bill from SAR (it does happen in a number of places). I figure it will be insurance companies that will start hitting people for being over-lifted and with heavy steel off road bumpers when said trucks are involved in hitting pedestrians.

I am all for freedom of expression and the freedom to build your rig the way you want - until that is, your freedom puts my life/safety at risk.

Lots of folks build up damn cool off-road rigs around here - and they trailer them to the back roads for a reason.

Cheers for now folks.
Scott
 

DRAX

Active member
I get it but would you have responded to me in the same way if I had said "yeah, we need those rules here, to keep everyone safer."
You are also assigning logic to the regulators; I can't take that leap. You know there are regs that bother you.

I would've told you the same thing, the article may have mentioned regulations but in no way shape or form did I take the article as some overlanding regulation manifesto for the US. You seem to have been triggered by some of the wording and now it seems you see no value in any part of what was written in the article.

Making logical overlanding mods based on what others have learned from basically pioneering it is what I took from the article. At no point was I thinking "HOW DARE THEY TRY AND SUGGEST WE NEED ALL THESE SAME REGULATIONS!@%#$@. THIS ARTICLE IS PROPAGANDA!!#$!" Ok, maybe that was an exaggeration, but that is the vibe you're giving off when that wasn't the way the article was being taken by myself or, apparently, others here.

Of course there are regulations that bother me. This is not a political thread, or it wasn't until you started making it one, nor was the article a political piece about how the US should adopt Australia's regulations. It was about function, reliability, and safety over form, what folks in Australia are doing, and the guidelines and regulations they have to work within. Australia does seem to have some rather practical rules and regulations in various areas, things that should be adopted by companies here in the US. Notice I didn't say our govt should make the same regulations. I said the companies should make some logical changes based on what Australia has implemented.

For example, Rhino Rack has to follow Australian regulations when testing and providing ratings for their roof racks. There's not only the static and dynamic ratings, but also off-road ratings. Yup, roof racks have lower capacity when used off-road. Who would've thought? On the flip side, I've yet to find a definition of what kind of driving is considered to be "off-road" for that testing. Not all off-road travel is the same, but all we're given is a formula to calculate the off-road cargo capacity based on the on-road capacity.

Point being, dismissing ideas because they happen to follow or be limited by regulations doesn't make them bad or invalid ideas. Dare I say that sometimes regulations promote innovation. Don't take that to mean I'm pro-regulation/pro-government. I'm not. I'm also not being stubborn or close-minded and will form my own thoughts and opinions based on the data I have available.

Maybe we can get back to actually talking about logical vehicle mods and their impact in this thread... :)
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Are Australians (not) modifying their vehicles a certain way because they are limited by their laws or because it really works 'better'? Seems to me like the regulations they have in place KEEP them from modifying their vehicles past a certain point ( for road vehicles), so they just make due with what they have. The vehicles aren't really any more capable because of these limitations. They might actually suffering MORE damage in difficult off-road conditions because they can't really modify them to properly handle the terrain. I love watching their off road videos on Youtube, it sure seems like they get stuck and use a lot more winch than their USA counterparts in similar terrain. They also have a tendency to carry a LOT of gear, fuel, and fluids with them because of the more remote traveling they have access to.
 

DRAX

Active member
Are Australians (not) modifying their vehicles a certain way because they are limited by their laws or because it really works 'better'? Seems to me like the regulations they have in place KEEP them from modifying their vehicles past a certain point ( for road vehicles), so they just make due with what they have. The vehicles aren't really any more capable because of these limitations. They might actually suffering MORE damage in difficult off-road conditions because they can't really modify them to properly handle the terrain. I love watching their off road videos on Youtube, it sure seems like they get stuck and use a lot more winch than their USA counterparts in similar terrain. They also have a tendency to carry a LOT of gear, fuel, and fluids with them because of the more remote traveling they have access to.

I'm sure part of it is also a different off-road culture, not to mention the distances and terrain differences. We don't really have to worry about crossing large deserts with loose, deep sand or having nothing/nobody around for dozens if not hundreds of miles. Honestly, in my ~30 years of off-roading and modifying vehicles (on and off-road), everything has been about function and the least compromise for the intended use of the vehicle. I've never been in the "bigger is always better" camp. Too many compromises and too much risk. You want to build something for KOH? Awesome. That's going to be a crappy overlanding rig, though. Just like a good overlanding rig is going to suck for KOH.

Let's examine your post as I think you make some good points but made no mention of how they correlate. I'm sure the regulations do limit them here and there, however...

- They might be suffering more damage due to the limitations/regulations
- They seem to get stuck a lot
- They carry a lot of fuel, gear, parts, etc

And here we have a"pick 2" dilemma of sorts. What I mean is changing one of these will affect the others, perhaps positively and perhaps negatively. I would wager the result would be a net loss and here's why.

If their vehicles are suffering more damage due to tire size limitations or want to get stuck less often then what happens if they throw on 35s or 37s? That adds weight, reduces fuel economy, and moves the weakest link from, say, body/cosmetic damage to drivetrain. Now rather than having to worry about clearance issues and harder obstacles they now have a greatly reduced fuel range and a much higher risk of breaking axles, etc. They've also reduced the amount of fuel or gear they can carry because the larger tires suck up more of the available payload capacity as far as the scale weight is concerned. Sure, the larger tires don't really count against payload, but if you're hitting the scales then it doesn't matter. Whatever the scale says, goes. So in an attempt to reduce certain damage or reduce the likelihood of getting stuck on an obstacle that makes up a fraction of the total route they end up making the vehicle worse for the majority of the travel in order to try and make a fraction of it easier. That's a net loss in my eyes. Not to mention the increased stress put on the suspension and steering components. So you made some damage less likely and reduced the chance of getting stuck for some obstacles, but overall the vehicle is worse off because you made big compromises that reduce the overall usability of the vehicle.

Ronny Dahl and Dan Grec have mountains of experience and have traveled Australia (and the world). They also tend to have some of the best builds with the least compromises that are capable of handing the most common terrain that will be encountered in their travels. There is no perfect rig/build, everything is a compromise for one reason or another.

Personally, I've always made modifications based on the shortcomings or issues experienced rather than just throwing the biggest parts at the rig and hoping for the best. This approach has worked very well for me, not only that but I have surprised others with how capable my vehicles are because they don't really look the part. Driver skill is the best and cheapest mod you can do, IMO, and I'm sure we've all seen it. Someone rolls up with some vehicle with a lift, giant tires, lockers, etc...and still manages to make trails look hard while someone in a smaller, less-capable-looking vehicle makes the same trail look easy. I've been the latter person most of the time, and honestly I do take some pleasure in proving the minimalist approach combined with driver skill provides the best overall combination.

We started using my current truck for overlanding starting in 2020, again I started with the minimalist approach. Better tires (Factory 31" all-season to 32" all-terrain) and improving ground clearance. Pack up and see how it does. We headed to Colorado and did a number of trails along/around the Alpine Loop. Time and again the truck surprised me, not only with how few times it scraped when I thought it would but with how planted it was in general. Then to be able to hop back on the pavement and have excellent road manners? Priceless. I can drive my truck for hours on the interstate and it's one of the most comfortable and capable long-distance vehicles I've ever had. But it wasn't perfect.

Over the winter of 2020-2021 I redid the rear suspension (Deaver Expedition leafs and Peak shocks) due to the constant weight the truck carries and wanting to regain some ground clearance while carrying that weight. I added aluminum skid plates to keep the weight down. Their function isn't to allow me to thrash my way over obstacles but to provide protection and warning if I misjudge something as I'm crawling along.

I could've gone with a 4" lift and 35" tires, but why? I don't need them, but some folks would rather just throw such mods at their rig because they think it'll be better only to discover it was probably a bad idea and now they have new problems to address while they negatively impacted the vehicle's on-road behavior.

Anyway, sorry for the novel. Hopefully my point is clear, though. :)
 

Todd780

OverCamper
Are Australians (not) modifying their vehicles a certain way because they are limited by their laws or because it really works 'better'? Seems to me like the regulations they have in place KEEP them from modifying their vehicles past a certain point ( for road vehicles), so they just make due with what they have. The vehicles aren't really any more capable because of these limitations. They might actually suffering MORE damage in difficult off-road conditions because they can't really modify them to properly handle the terrain. I love watching their off road videos on Youtube, it sure seems like they get stuck and use a lot more winch than their USA counterparts in similar terrain. They also have a tendency to carry a LOT of gear, fuel, and fluids with them because of the more remote traveling they have access to.
Good questions. Maybe some folks that live in Australia can chime in?

Might need a title change to reflect that topic? Or would that be a separate new topic for a new post?
 

rruff

Explorer
What "problem" are all these rules designed to solve?

Have there been a rash of on-road accidents caused by overloaded or improperly equipped vehicles? Is this something that the various state highway departments even track?

They went completely off the rails with GVWR. None of the assertions they make are true.

"Australians take GVWR (or, as they call it, gross vehicle mass) seriously for a reason. Exceeding the total weight a vehicle is designed to carry causes accidents. It can do that by increasing braking distances, creating brake failures, leading to rollovers, and overtaxing important components. In short, it can kill both you and other road users.

While American cops aren’t trained to look for overloaded vehicles, physics don’t change when they cross an ocean. And neither do many of the legal concerns. Just like in Australia, exceeding GVWR can invalidate your insurance, push liability in your direction in the event of a crash, and lead to charges of negligence."
 

rruff

Explorer
"... meanwhile the factory suspension (that hasn't been repaired or updated since 1989) can't take all the weight, the brakes are faded and done and they don't have much actual real world experience driving said rigs. Makes for a beautiful cocktail of ******** going sideways fast.

Exactly. Big top heavy rigs, particularly with a trailer, are inherently dangerous. They suck at stopping and handling and there is no way to fix that. You mitigate the danger to yourself and (mostly) others making sure your rig is capable and in good working order, slowing down, allowing more room, being responsible.

In the US a driver is expected to drive their rigs safely and responsibly. That means you don't cause an accident. If you do, then you were negligent... doesn't matter if you had your head up your butt and weren't paying attention, or your braking distance was longer than you thought, or your crappy vehicle fell apart, or whatever. I like that arrangement since it covers all contingencies in reality, while regulations never can.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
If their vehicles are suffering more damage due to tire size limitations or want to get stuck less often then what happens if they throw on 35s or 37s?

Throwing on bigger tires isn't really a vehicle 'build'. They are very regulated in what they can change on the vehicle to support those larger tires.
They have to go through super long bureaucratic processes to do something like change to a heavier duty axle.

I don't have any issue doing long hard wheeling trips in any of my vehicles with big dumb tires. I've done tens of thousands of miles on 40s up and down the interstate all over the west. While I will concede that most people, including yourself it sounds like, don't need larger than stock tires to drive around on dirt roads and camp out of their vehicle......that isn't what some of us are looking for. I'm super happy that a basic simple cheap vehicle build makes you happy. I want a vehicle that can drive a few thousand miles with a trip over something like the Rubicon or Dusy Ershim trail in the middle. I want to go do a few hundred miles of deep snow wheeling after driving a thousand miles north. I don't want to HAVE to use a trailer (and HAVE to have a tow rig) to do those kinds of trips. I don't want to have to drag my vehicle over every rock along the way with some kind of arbitrary tire size limitation.

I definitely don't want the .gov telling me what I can and can't do with my vehicles.....that never seems to end well for the enthusiasts. I find the acceptance of most of these types of rules and regulations in this forum concerning. What if they told you you couldn't change the tires at all......that tires with any kind 'aggressive' tread should be illegal because they could throw a rock. That you couldn't modify or repair your vehicle yourself whatsoever because of 'liability' issues. You must have all work done only at an 'approved' service center at whatever price they dream up. You can only drive your vehicle for say 10 years....or maybe 5... before you can no longer register it for on road use. That is where a lot of this stuff is headed, sorry you can't see that.
 

Paddler Ed

Adventurer
The most common pickups there are mid-sizes, like the Ford Ranger (Australia’s bestselling vehicle), and the largest noncommercial vehicle you’ll likely see on the road is a 79-series Land Cruiser (max payload under 2,700 pounds). Meanwhile, the bestselling vehicle in America is the Ford F-150, which can be optioned to carry 3,325 pounds. And our trucks get even larger—the Ford Super Duty can haul up to 7,044 pounds.
(https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/cars-trucks/build-overland-vehicle-like-australian/)

As they say, the max payload on many things in Australia are around 1000kg, perhaps 1200kg. BUT that's because a car licence (the default licence you get when you pass your driving test as a teenager) is limited to 4500kg GVM.

An Aussie could drive an imported F150 or SuperDuty, but if it's GVM is greater than 4500kg then they need to get a Light Rigid (LR) licence, same as a truck driver. Doesn't matter that they won't be driving commercially (for Hire or Reward is the term used in the UK), you need to get an LR licence that sees you through to 8,000kg GVM (https://www.nsw.gov.au/topics/driver-and-rider-licences/licence-classes-and-conditions/classes). This is inline with the European driving licencing system as well, where anyone under the age of 42 has to have C1 to drive over 3500kg vehicles (but less than 7500kg).
 

DRAX

Active member
Throwing on bigger tires isn't really a vehicle 'build'. They are very regulated in what they can change on the vehicle to support those larger tires.
They have to go through super long bureaucratic processes to do something like change to a heavier duty axle.

I don't have any issue doing long hard wheeling trips in any of my vehicles with big dumb tires. I've done tens of thousands of miles on 40s up and down the interstate all over the west. While I will concede that most people, including yourself it sounds like, don't need larger than stock tires to drive around on dirt roads and camp out of their vehicle......that isn't what some of us are looking for. I'm super happy that a basic simple cheap vehicle build makes you happy. I want a vehicle that can drive a few thousand miles with a trip over something like the Rubicon or Dusy Ershim trail in the middle. I want to go do a few hundred miles of deep snow wheeling after driving a thousand miles north. I don't want to HAVE to use a trailer (and HAVE to have a tow rig) to do those kinds of trips. I don't want to have to drag my vehicle over every rock along the way with some kind of arbitrary tire size limitation.

I'm not telling you how you should build your vehicle, everyone's wants and needs are different. I've had countless Jeeps, I've wheeled the Rubicon and Johnson Valley, I have done more rock crawling than anything throughout my off-road life. I think you missed the point of my post since you only quoted one portion of my post without any other context.

I definitely don't want the .gov telling me what I can and can't do with my vehicles.....that never seems to end well for the enthusiasts. I find the acceptance of most of these types of rules and regulations in this forum concerning. What if they told you you couldn't change the tires at all......that tires with any kind 'aggressive' tread should be illegal because they could throw a rock. That you couldn't modify or repair your vehicle yourself whatsoever because of 'liability' issues. You must have all work done only at an 'approved' service center at whatever price they dream up. You can only drive your vehicle for say 10 years....or maybe 5... before you can no longer register it for on road use. That is where a lot of this stuff is headed, sorry you can't see that.

This confirms that you totally missed the point of my post(s) as no part of what I posted was advocating imposing more regulations in the US or adopting what Australia is doing. That wasn't what this thread was about, either, but for some reason a couple of folks seem to be latching on to that when that wasn't even the bulk of what any of this has been about. The implication that I or anyone else is willing to accept such regulations being imposed is nonsense because I haven't said anything of the sort. Don't put words in peoples' mouths.

Please, drop the politics and hyperbole and stick to the topic. Getting off in the weeds about politics is not productive. I won't be responding to any replies that involve politics in this thread.
 

Paddler Ed

Adventurer
Hey, Paddler Ed what are your thoughts on the part about hitting a 'roo at 85 mph (>130kph) ?

That was the part where the authour lost me ... sounds too fast for me, even if it was the speed limit. (???). Especially in the context of talking about safety and if, as I took it, the driver is concerned or at least cognisant of possible animal strikes.

Hit a smaller grey at about 90km/hr, and the 4Runner was fine.... 'roo? Not so much - ended up in the other lane and dog food for the local farmer.... A red (which would be much bigger) might have survived it, but doubtful. At 130km/hr, the only way the 'roo would be walking away is if it only bounced into the brush bars, rather than square on.

Also hit a bigger eastern grey in a work Isuzu D-Max (same as a Chevy Colorado I think) at about 70km/hr.... that didn't do as well; with the more pedestrian friendly bar, it folded back and hit the bonnet but was still completely drivable for the 300km trip back from the job site. 'Roo was wiped out again
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I'm not telling you how you should build your vehicle, everyone's wants and needs are different. I've had countless Jeeps, I've wheeled the Rubicon and Johnson Valley, I have done more rock crawling than anything throughout my off-road life. I think you missed the point of my post since you only quoted one portion of my post without any other context.



This confirms that you totally missed the point of my post(s) as no part of what I posted was advocating imposing more regulations in the US or adopting what Australia is doing. That wasn't what this thread was about, either, but for some reason a couple of folks seem to be latching on to that when that wasn't even the bulk of what any of this has been about. The implication that I or anyone else is willing to accept such regulations being imposed is nonsense because I haven't said anything of the sort. Don't put words in peoples' mouths.

Please, drop the politics and hyperbole and stick to the topic. Getting off in the weeds about politics is not productive. I won't be responding to any replies that involve politics in this thread.

I didn't miss it, I just didn't beat around the bush for a full page about it.

I don't care what you do with your vehicle, and you shouldn't care about what I do with mine. That clear enough?

Many in this thread are proposing that legislation against vehicle mods would be a good thing.
 

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