Introduction and 1st of MANY ?'s

[Needin'Advice]

Hello everyone. I have checked this site out on numerous occasions before and finally decided that there was a wealth of knowledge worth trying to tap into, so I registered and here I am.

I am thinking I might want a Suburban, and I know there are quite a few others here that have previously, currently do, or wish they owned one. I also know everyone has there own opinion and they won't all be the same, but I love hearing the thoughts of others.

Here's some details about me and what I "think" I want and why:
1. My wife and I have 2 young boys (they will be 1 and 4 in March) and we want to raise them camping, canoeing, riding atvs/dirtbikes, and so on. The youngest had his first tent camping outing at 10 weeks old!
2. We have family in Michigan, Maryland, Carolinas, Montana, Arizona, and a few other places and as the boys get older will be (hopefully) driving to visit some of these places. We currently do the Michigan trip somewhat regularly. We also love the UP.
3. Although it might sound a little contradictory, I do have some concerns about fuel economy and try to "save" in that area when I can. As a point of reference, I get about 16mpg in the Duramax, 21mpg in the freestyle, and the wife gets about 15-16mpg from the Xterra.
4. We live "on a mountain" by SE Ohio standards and winter is interesting to say the least when we have snow. Our driveway has about 200ft of elevation change and is approx. 900 ft long. It is about as steep as you can find in this area. 4x4 and AWD are almost a requirement! In the winter, lockers are almost a requirement.

Enough backstory, I think I want a square body suburban, 1991 if I can find one, 3/4 ton, 4x4, am interested in the fuel economy of a diesel and likely won't be towing much if any. I think I want barn doors. Don't mind a manual tranny, and from reading think that might be the way to go with a diesel. It sounds like the auto with overdrive is far better than the others. I definitely want the third row seat. After spending 5k on rust repair on my Silverado, I am very interested in finding something NOT from the rust belt. I would maybe even consider flying to arizona, visit family and drive something home. I am sure I am forgetting some details.

I want a "do it all" vehicle. One that we can load the kids, dog, friends, and or gear into and hit the road. If we leave the pavement, I want it to be capable, but don't need a hard core off roader(do want to be able to go up and down my driveway as needed though). I want to maximize fuel economy as much as possible considering the size and lack of aerodynamics.

I am relatively mechanically inclined. Basic maintenance, brakes, most replacement parts I can handle. I have not done engine swaps or rebuilds, transmission work and axle swaps or gear changes. With the two young ones and a work-a-holic wife, projects are very slow and I would prefer to not have to do anything major right off. (Example, I have been building a rear bumper for the Duramax for about 3 months and still have a lot left to do).

So what are your thoughts? What am I not thinking of? What should a definitely be looking for and looking to avoid? What should I be expecting to spend on such a vehicle? Should I be picky about finding a '91 or widen my scope some? Do I "need" a 3/4, or is 1/2 ton fine? I am open to suggestions and advice.

My time line is...? As a school teacher, finding something during the early summer would be best and would allow me more freedom to travel to find something that doesn't have the Ohio rust on it.

Thanks in advance for what I assume will be a wealth of info. And yes, I did check out the polar bear thread. I would love to have the end product, but I do not have that kind of know-how or skill. Sorry it is such a long post, but I wanted to be as thorough as possible.

 

[rayra]

welcome. Sounds like you've thought thru some of your needs and wants already. Consider that any economy in a diesel may be offset by the higher diesel fuel pricing. Although the torque would be nice on that hill climb you call a driveway.
Is the older body series a style choice or driven by budget? They are pretty spartan, in terms of amenities back then. You can get a decade newer for not a lot of money and in good condition. But it wouldn't take much to add power ports, jacks, entertainment for the passengers to the older vehicle. And as long as your vehicle choice has a good rear air conditioner / heater system, they aren't really all that different. I'm not sure / can't recall, if the '91 has the cargo area spare or the underslung. It takes a lot of room inside the vehicle, but then again there is a LOT of room to spare in a Suburban.

I'm sure there are many folks here that will chime in on the relative mpg in the earlier series. I would think you definitely want fuel injection and an overdrive trans if you want maximal mileage on long distance trips. We're getting ~17 out of the 5.3L vortec / 4L60E trans in both our '05 Tahoe and '02 Suburban on long cruises at ~70mph and around 14 in town. Me a little worse in the Suburban.

You'll DEFINITELY want something from the southwest states if you are after something as old as '91

Edmunds has a pretty good rundown on the generational changes in the Suburbans, that might give you more to consider.
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/suburban/history/

 

[toastyjosh]

Go for the burb! Look at NM, AZ, CA, NV,UT, CO on Craigslist for trucks fly out and drive it home! My choice would be 3/4 ton but there many more 1/2 tons out there.

I am looking for one right now and there are plenty in NM in the 1500-3000 range that are good. I am looking 90 to 00 range.

 

[legendaryandrew]

I typically approach things with that thought that overbuilt is built just right, so I vote 3/4 ton. Everything is beefier, from the frame to suspension components.

 

[peneumbra]

Have you considered a diesel ******d Excursion?

 

[Needin'Advice]

I tried to reply with quotes(or some such thing) and evidently messed it up because I do not see it posted anywhere, so I will try this method instead:

rayra:
I forgot to mention that a/c is a must have for me and the rear a/c and heat would definitely be sought after. I think I like the square bodies based mostly on the looks, they are just plain cool looking, but also like the relative low tech nature of them from a reliability stand point. If I get stranded on the side of the road, I feel like me and my Leatherman tool stand a fighting chance. Also, I like what the solid front axle offers later down the road if the vehicle needs change in a more off-road direction. That being said, I came here for ideas, thoughts and advice, so feel free to give me the sales pitch on some other models or years (which you have done, thank you).

rayra and toastyjosh:
I will certainly be looking outside of this area. My 03 Duramax has many rust related issues that have caused headaches and $ spent. I will avoid that in the future, for sure! What about southeastern states; Alabama, Georgia, Carolina's, etc.. They are much closer to me, do they have rust issues? I know AZ is good, but the trade-off is roasted dashboards, right?

legandaryandrew:
That is basically my thought on the 3/4 as well. Why not go with the stronger components if possible? I have read that the frames are the same though, is that true. Bigger brakes and suspension components, and 16 inch wheels is what I believe I read the most about as far as differences...correct me if I am wrong.

peneumbra:
I hadn't really thought about an Excursion, although I do like the looks of some of them. Give me your sales pitch...

On a more general note, I forgot to mention that I do have a cap/topper for the 2003 Duramax CrewCab and could probably make it work for my needs, but it lacks a third row of seats for extra people and it doesn't look as cool as an old Suburban. It also is starting to have some electrical gremlins (faulty windows, adjustable/heated seats not working, key fob doesn't work, etc...), coolant leak that I haven't quite located yet, weak heat(possible related to the coolant leak?), rust popping through the bed sides, the cap needs some attention as far as the liftgate and latches, and so on. But it is paid for, insured, plated and already here. Might I be ahead to just spend more time and energy toward it and forget about adding to the fleet?

 

[Bojak]

Square body suburban. Trust me.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[Martinjmpr]

Finding a square body without rust might be tough. Even here in relatively dry Colorado the square bodies seem to show a LOT of rust (above the wheel wells seems to be the worst, that and the rear quarter panels.)
.
Were the square bodies offered with a diesel? I didn't think they were. I know the GMT-400 Suburbans (both Chevy and GMC Suburbans) were.
.
IMO older trucks are great if you are very mechanically inclined or if you are just looking for a beater to use in your local area. If you are planning on putting the kids in it and going long distances I think a later model vehicle might be better. You can find GMT-400 Suburbans with everything you are looking for (3rd row, rear AC, diesel, barn doors) here in CO for $4000 or less, sometimes a lot less, depending on how much work you're willing to do.
.
WRT doors, if you get a square body I would definitely go with barn doors. The drawback to the tailgate is that if you can't get the window down you can't open the tailgate. We had that problem a LOT in our M1009 CUCVs (square-body Blazers) in the Army.

 

[arveetek]

.
Were the square bodies offered with a diesel? I didn't think they were. I know the GMT-400 Suburbans (both Chevy and GMC Suburbans) were.

Yes. There were gobs of them built with the mechanical 6.2L naturally aspirated diesel from 1982 until 1991. Then in 1994, the newer GMT-400 came with the electronic turbocharged 6.5L diesel.

The 6.2L's are great, simple, reliable, and cheap, and parts are available everywhere. A bit underpowered, especially when towing. A fully loaded 'burb might feel sluggish. Expect stock economy in a 4WD '91 Burb to be around 18 to 20 mpg.

Casey

 

[jscusmcvet]

Well - I started my journey with the exact vehicle you are describing late last year . You can read through my thread and it might answer some of your questions, but here is some of my take.
- The 350 does seem a bit underpowered for the Burb - if you plan to tow anything with some weight to it, I do not think you would be satisfied.
- The barn doors are awesome.
- The 91's have the spare mounted inside. If you want to buy a new rear bumper with tire carrier, set aside ~$1k minimum.
- I am getting 12mpg around town and on my commute (rural 2 lane) and 14.5 or so on the highway.
- This drivetrain seems to love 55 - 62 mph or so... just a lazy lope... and really starts to work/get thirsty at 70+ on the interstate.
- A decent 91 3/4 ton 4wd will cost you as much or more as a Ford Excursion with the gas V10 that is newer and with more ammenities. I am not advocating one way or another, just pointing out the availability. The Ford Ex diesels are very expensive used... the gassers not so much.
- The offroad capability of my stock 3/4 ton is impressive. Does way more than expected without spinning a tire or disconnecting sway bar, etc... although I am adding a rear locker for peace of mind.
- Parts are easy to find and cheap. The "electrical gremlins" you mentioned in your current rig are going to be there in some form or another in a 25+ year old rig as well, although it might be vacuum lines or whatnot... basically the same concept of the little thiings to take care of again and again.
-Plan on taking care of a bunch of things when you first get it. I think, if I have no major mechanical issues, I will be into my rig for another ~$2k before I add in the $ spent on upgrades, such as the aforementioned locker, winch and any suspension upgrades. I am taking about weatherstipping, window seals, bushings, tie rod ends and other wear parts. Plan on steering upgrades to make it handle anything close to what you are accustomed to.

John

As for rust in the southeast, stay out of the mountains and away from the coast and you should be good. Love your location by the way. Beautiful homestead.

 

[Needin'Advice]

Thanks for the replies.

Bojak, I am betting you own a square body...

Martin, I appreciate the comments and as I looked at the "newer" burbs, I realized that I am drawn to the style of the square bodies more. I am sure that the gmt400's would fit whatever needs I have, but I just don't like the styling as much. That by no means rules them out, though. A vehicle to me is first about usefulness, looks are secondary(or maybe even thirdary; not a word, I know). The rust will be a big determining factor on any vehicle I buy in the future.

jscusmcvet, I started looking at your thread before I registered and when I couldn't view the first few pictures, I jumped ship. I did just go back and skim through it and it looks like you are putting together a nice rig. You certainly had a great starting point with that particular one, as well. I haven't really heard any thing too great about the 5.7 and makes me want to shy away from it. That leaves the 6.2 diesel and a big block (454) right? Was the 7.4 available in '91? As far as staying away from the coast and out of the mountains, is there much left? And thanks for the nod on the homestead...we love it! Log Cabin on 40 acres, mostly wooded, a few streams. Can hardly even see a neighbor and most of the "neighbors" have 70-200+ acres. They are there if you need them, but otherwise, you may not see them for weeks. Also, with the driveway we have, we don't get too many unannounced visitors!

From purely a reliability stand point, what is the best stock drive train to look for(engine, tranny, transfer case, axles)? I am still a bit fuzzy on which combinations were available in what years. From everything I have read the 4l80 is the best auto tranny but was only in the squarebodies the one year, is that correct? I read about a few 5spd manual swaps, but they work with only certain (earlier?) year t-cases. Sorry, I am mostly thinking out loud at this point. And if anyone wants to educate my on the axle options for for this time period, that is what I have the most difficulty finding.

Anyway, keep the input coming, I am loving it.

 

[jscusmcvet]

jscusmcvet, I started looking at your thread before I registered and when I couldn't view the first few pictures, I jumped ship. I did just go back and skim through it and it looks like you are putting together a nice rig. You certainly had a great starting point with that particular one, as well. I haven't really heard any thing too great about the 5.7 and makes me want to shy away from it. That leaves the 6.2 diesel and a big block (454) right? Was the 7.4 available in '91? As far as staying away from the coast and out of the mountains, is there much left? And thanks for the nod on the homestead...we love it! Log Cabin on 40 acres, mostly wooded, a few streams. Can hardly even see a neighbor and most of the "neighbors" have 70-200+ acres. They are there if you need them, but otherwise, you may not see them for weeks. Also, with the driveway we have, we don't get too many unannounced visitors!

From purely a reliability stand point, what is the best stock drive train to look for(engine, tranny, transfer case, axles)? I am still a bit fuzzy on which combinations were available in what years. From everything I have read the 4l80 is the best auto tranny but was only in the squarebodies the one year, is that correct?

I'll chime back in. I am a newbie to Burbs so I may get corrected here and that is okey dokey with me. I did not mean anything bad about the 350 (5.7). They seem durable if taken care of, are pretty basic and parts seem cheap. I suppose you could always find someone to work on it no matter where you are also.The 4l80 was only in the square bodies in '91. The benefit to it is the 4th gear overdrive... better gas mileage, gives it a very comfortable ride, as mentioned above at 55 -62 on the rural 2 lanes.. The southeast has plenty of space without being in the salt areas of the coast or the snow areas of the mountains...

And finally I can relate to your spread. We are on 85 mostly wooded acres, almost a mile from the paved road with surrounding land owned primarily by one family and the Boy Scouts. My forever spot, I hope.

Good luck with your search.

 

[rayra]

lmctruck.com will be a good source for a lot of parts on the old Burbs (and many other aging vehicles / brands)

In the '91 you'll want to look for the 'scottsdale' trim package, for the electric windows and door locks. And expect to have to fix something.

The other big negative with the tailgate is that with any lift at all and the tailgate down you can't reach a damned thing in the back without climbing in.

Expect the upholstery to be tattered in something that old, but there are lots of kits available. I got my '02 Z-71 k1500 Sub a year ago for $6k with 114k mi on it. It was a mom taxi and showed that sort of wear and interior mess. But it cleaned up real well and has been solid since. I think it was a very good deal. Just a bit past its prime but still looking and running good. Has a leather interior and except for the expected bolster cracking and wear on the driver's seat the rest looks new.

Seconding, there are many 6.2 diesels out there. particularly in the 3/4 ton models which were typically the choice and setup for towing.

 

[Needin'Advice]

Thank you all for the feedback. I think have have decided not to begin the search for a suburban. After thinking about what I want vs what I need, in conjunction with what I actually have time for, I think I am better off not adding another vehicle to the mix right now. My 2003 Silverado can serve my needs and cover most of my bases, even if it isn't quite as cool as a square body burb. We are done having kids and they are too young right now to be asking for their friends to tag along, so not having a third row seat isn't a huge deal. I can put the cap back on and have many of the same storage space benefits as if it was a suburban. The truck needs some things done to it anyway, and if I got a suburban, I would likely just further neglect the truck.

Here are some plans for the 2003 Crew Cab Duramax:

1. Finish the bumper that I have been working on for the rear(this is my first ever metal working project)



2. Work on rear brakes, one caliper gets hung up and gets HOT
3. Figure out why my power/heated seats don't work anymore
4. Put the cap back on it
5. Build some type of rack for the roof(preferably on the cap, not the truck itself)
6. Look into a small lift, or at least a leveling kit. Anyone have experience with the Cognito kit?
7. Rims and tires. My current stock rims are looking pretty bad, and tires are wearing out and the triple plug I put in one still leaks air.
8. Replace the bed in the next year or two, rust is starting to pop through the bed sides
9. I am sure there are other things I am forgetting.

Evidently, when a vehicle hits 250K miles, it starts needing some attention...go figure!

Project "Research and find a square body suburban" dies before the "finding" part even begins; Project "fix up the Dmax" has new life.

Perhaps I will use this site as a way to motivate me to keep moving forward, even though my efforts will pale in comparison to what most of you do here!

Thanks Again!

 

[Bojak]

Put that dmax in a square suburban and you have it covered all the way around.