If I were you I’d be calling the cops and the district attorney. That is ridiculous.
Issues with Inka Outdoors
- Thread starter Pathfinder7
- Start date
Teardropper
Well-known member
Fraud is an intent crime.
Looking at his product, I think he had a dream and got grossly overextended. If he intended this from the beginning it'd be a damn hard element to prove.
T
jacobconroy
Hillbilly of Leisure
That sounds good in theory...but we all know that there are many more flake customers on the Internet than there are crooked businesses. Businesses need to have some sort of recourse from their perspective as well.
A deposit is acceptable to hold a place in line, but it should be a small, token amount (that a customer should be able to afford to lose in a worst-case scenario...or if they back out).
I custom ordered a 13 foot Scamp camper two years ago for $14.5K. They charged a $500.00 deposit. I said, "Are you sure that's enough?" and he replied, "We've been doing this for 40 years. We are sure".
They delivered the trailer on time too. Now, the build quality was ********, but they kept their word.
shade
Well-known member
True, at least in the legal sense. Outside a courtroom, it's not hard to see fraud when a company continues to accept new orders & money while filing for bankruptcy. When there's no hope those new orders will ever be filled, what's the true intent of the people taking them? Several of these failures seem to follow a pattern that isn't unique to this market.
Dream > Product > Initial Excitement > Sales > Growing Pains > Backlog >
Moment of Truth: Do we realistically manage our growth & expectations, and revise our business plan?
At the moment of truth, leaders of a company show their business skill & wisdom, or lack thereof. The smart, well-grounded ones make good decisions, or humbly recognize that they lack the ability to do so and seek out a business pro to guide them through the crucible. The not-so-bright, not-so-realistic ones continue stumbling down the wrong path until, predictably:
Things Fall Apart > The Centre Cannot Hold > Chapter 7
Arguably, fraud becomes more provable as the situation devolves into taking new deposits on new sales to fund long delayed orders, impossible completion dates are promised, and outright lies are told in an effort to keep funding a company that's secretly in its death throes. Ask Tyler & Satin Pelfrey for expertise with that business model.
Be honest with yourself and your customers. If you can't make the hard decisions, find someone that can before it's too late.
It isn't easy, but I see those two sentences at the heart of many business failures.
QQQ
Member
the build quality was ********, but they kept their word.
lol
BritKLR
Kapitis Indagatoris
Easily investigated and proven in both a criminal and civil court. The fraud (and the intent) occurred the moment he accepted funds without the ability (or choice) to provide the products (With or without a verbal or written contract). Both a first year LE Detective/Investigator or Forensic Accountant (working for a Civil Attorney) could build this case for either a criminal case and/or civil case. Being a bad business person is not an affirmative defense. (Note: Subject to the elements within the State Statute where the crime occurred.)
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Teardropper
Well-known member
Retired criminal investigator. And I disagree about how easy it would be to build that case and sell it to a county or federal prosecutor. It's a civil issue.
T
BritKLR
Kapitis Indagatoris
Thank you for your service! It's always great to meet someone that has also made it to the end and enjoying life beyond the badge!
Fair enough....different agency approaches, different jurisdiction, different statutes and definitely different prosecutors....while the amounts involved (I don't know...) may be below federal prosecutorial guidelines and therefore you may not be able to walk it into the AUSA's Office or have your local Fed adopt the case, I doubt it's below state guidelines. In my old jurisdiction you'd have prosecutors lining up for a criminal case like this (business taking advantage of customers).
As for "It's a civil issue", I will have to respectfully disagree and after 30 years on the job (Deputy, K9, Detective, Narcotics, General Crimes, Violent Crimes, Homicide Squad, Cyber Squad, Federal TFO Sergeant, Investigations Sergeant, Investigations Captain, Division Commander, Chief of Police, blah, blah, blah...) and I have found that to be a easy justification to not work a fraud case. Some agencies get a little intimidated when It comes to money, accounting, business and contracts and defer it to a civil matter, but there are clear criminal statutes for this type of behavior as well. Cheers.
BritKLR
Kapitis Indagatoris
Great example of the criminal aspect of not doing business correctly -
calicamper
Expedition Leader
Vapor ware seems to be a trend with small camp trailer builders. Some advice if they want more than $500 you need to live close by so you can pop in and make sure they are building your trailer every week.
We have a saying in the boat business. Quickest way to make your first million start with 2 million!
The trailer building business is very similar.
We have a saying in the boat business. Quickest way to make your first million start with 2 million!
The trailer building business is very similar.
calicamper
Expedition Leader
Yes the Ranger would be my choice. Torque and 10spd being really nice. Interior is roomy of the three midsized truck choices. Only bummers are only short bed and no front locker. The LB would be my choice so I can fit bikes with gate up.
Chi-Town
The guy under the car
If he filed for bankruptcy it's highly unlikely that anyone will see a dime of their money returned.
You can file a civil suit but it's a royal pain to sue through the bankruptcy courts and it costs twice as much most times
Criminal charges will never be filed as it turns into a mess most DA don't want to deal with.
As a word of advise if you put a big deposit down on anything custom made get the owner to sign on as a person guarantor that way you can chase him even if the company goes down.
You can file a civil suit but it's a royal pain to sue through the bankruptcy courts and it costs twice as much most times
Criminal charges will never be filed as it turns into a mess most DA don't want to deal with.
As a word of advise if you put a big deposit down on anything custom made get the owner to sign on as a person guarantor that way you can chase him even if the company goes down.
msujay2012
New member
I was able to get my deposit refunded through amex. Highly recommend using amex for a deposit and documenting all communication with the vendor in writing.