Keep the Power Wagon or get a diesel flatbed???

[Tex68w]

Well we've come to a crossroads in our vehicle needs/wants. We know after a trial period with a few different setups on the truck now that we are leaning towards a hard sided pop-up/in-bed camper and momma wants a heater and the ability to stand and to be able to easily load and unload the dogs. This has led us pretty much to a FWC, sure there are others that are similar, but the FWC meets our needs/requirements and has the build quality, durability, availability and reputation that we desire. Now we just have to decide between a traditional slide-in or a flatbed version, but therein lies the larger issue.

We can simply add air-bags to the rear of the PW and safely handle a slide-in style FWC which we can easily load and unload when needed. The lower payload capacity and softer springs on the PW means that we would need to rely heavily on the airbags to stabilize and level that load. I don't expect much better than 12 mpg's out of the PW with a FWC on the back but we knew what we were getting in regards to fuel economy and range when we bought the PW so it's not a surprise so much as it is a harsh reality. I have the PW built mostly how I want it now, short of some upgrades and minor additions, and it is an affordable truck in comparison to a new diesel and everything it would need to get where the PW currently sits.

I have considered simply putting a flatbed on the PW, but the idea of flatbed on an already inefficient gasser on 37's brings about visions of free flowing fuel pumps and cash flying out of my wallet. Flatbeds create added drag and dirty air which is certainly not going to make matters any better. And again we find ourselves relying heavily on the air bags due to the low payload capacity and soft springs of the rear end on the PW, less than ideal for a flatbed host in theory.

We could do things properly and use a standard 3/4-ton or 1-ton diesel platform which would provide a much better payload and increased range and fuel economy when compared to a similar setup on the gasser trucks. This would require buying a new truck and starting all over. The diesel truck lacks lockers, a winch, disconnecting sway bar, etc. which means not only do I have to incur the increased costs of purchasing/owning/operating a diesel (higher purchase price/maintenance/fuel) but I also have to add all of those items via the aftermarket out of pocket. The diesel truck would be heavier and less agile off-road, but it would be a much more stable and efficient host for the FWC and arguably a much safer truck on the road. The main reason why a flatbed would be preferable is due in large part because of the added room inside of the flatbed FWC models in comparison to those of the slide-ins.

Now there's no guarantee that we will gain much more than 1-3 mpg's with the diesel truck when compared to the gasser and the added cost of the more efficient diesel might just be a wash in the long run. The PW while handicapped in its payload is still a 3/4-ton truck and no slouch and will probably be more than adequate for our needs in regards to load stability with the use of rear air bags, but the concern still lingers. So for those of you who have been down a similar path and those of you looking on with an opinion/suggestion, what would you do in this situation? Do we keep the PW and suffer fuel range and economy with cheaper to purchase fuel and run a cheaper yet less spacious slide-in while putting most of our faith in the air bags? Or do we start all over and move forward with a new truck on a more proper chassis/suspension and gain room in the more spacious camper along with better range and fuel economy albeit with pricier and harder to find fuel and added ownership costs?

 

[Bayou Boy]

You could always put regular 2500 rear coils on your truck and regain the load capacity. I'd even bet that the Thuren rear coils have more load capacity than your factory coils.

Also, having owned an ATC popup and having seen 4wheel campers and Hallmark campers, I'd stay away from the dated basic ATC and 4WC designs and find a nice Phoenix or Hallmark. They will be significantly more enjoyable to camp in. After having moved from an ATC Cougar to a Lance 855 the dated design and execution of the 4WC and ATC were appalling for not much less money than the significantly more advanced competition. The Phoenix and Hallmark get you the light weight and offroad ruggedness of the ATC and 4WC with a lot of the niceties of the Lance.

As for MPG, I got 11mpg with my Lance on round trips to Colorado from South Louisiana with 35s and stock gearing rolling 75 on the highway. I ran my ATC on my Ram once when I had 100 miles on the truck out to Austin to trade it in on the Lance and got like 17mpg on stock tires. I literally drove to Princess Craft to trade it on the Lance two days after taking the truck home.

Also, if you buy an SRW diesel and expect to run 37s and a camper you're going to need to regear to 4.10s or 4.30s. Take that into consideration.

 

[Bayou Boy]

You could always put regular 2500 rear coils on your truck and regain the load capacity. I'd even bet that the Thuren rear coils have more load capacity than your factory coils.

Also, having owned an ATC popup and having seen 4wheel campers and Hallmark campers, I'd stay away from the dated basic ATC and 4WC designs and find a nice Phoenix or Hallmark. They will be significantly more enjoyable to camp in. After having moved from an ATC Cougar to a Lance 855 the dated design and execution of the 4WC and ATC were appalling for not much less money than the significantly more advanced competition. The Phoenix and Hallmark get you the light weight and offroad ruggedness of the ATC and 4WC with a lot of the niceties of the Lance.

As for MPG, I got 11mpg with my Lance on round trips to Colorado from South Louisiana with 35s and stock gearing rolling 75 on the highway. I ran my ATC on my Ram once when I had 100 miles on the truck out to Austin to trade it in on the Lance and got like 17mpg on stock tires. I literally drove to Princess Craft to trade it on the Lance two days after taking the truck home.

If you want to chat some, shoot me a PM and we can connect offline.

 

[Littlehouse]

Overland explorer camp x on the wagon?

 

[zoomad75]

Don't forget the added baggage of the emissions garbage on a new diesel. It proven that emissions laden diesels get less fuel economy than the earlier non-emissions diesels did. You get the added fun of DEF fluid to add every few thousand miles too. Yes that stuff can be deleted with a little bit of work and updated (non-factory) tuning. But doing so under warranty will possibly kill what engine warranty you have. To me going out and buying a new diesel truck at a price north of $50-60k and then deleting the emissions junk to then kill the engine warranty in the process is pure insanity.

I don't agree with the mandated emissions equipment, but as long as it's under warranty I wouldn't make the change to delete the parts. This way the manufacturer can fix it if/when it breaks. Hopefully it isn't in the middle of a trip or something.

The net gain in fuel economy between the diesel and the gasser probably isn't much once you factor in acquisition cost, modification costs to get it up to the level the PW was as far as traction devices and such and then the cost of the flat bed.

I think the idea of a increased capacity aftermarket rear spring and an airbag combination should prop up the PW's weak cargo capacity. Yeah a flatbed model FWC does have a little more space since you got flat sides, but I don't think the slightly better space/capacity is worth the need for the flatbed/diesel combination.

 

[bknudtsen]

Keep the PW and get custom coils setup for your load.

 

[Tex68w]

Thanks for all of the replies so far, but keep them coming as I want to hear as many opinions as possible. I am really trying to find a way to talk myself back from the ledge here when it comes to off-loading this truck. The PW is my first HD gasser, I have always owned diesels and I'm not going to lie, I miss them. That said, the Hemi has been great up to this point and short of the extra torque to help when towing it really doesn't feel under gunned in any way.

I already have a set of Airlift Loadlifter 5000 airbags and Daystar cradles on their way and I plan to install them this coming weekend. I went looking through my pile of parts and I have a set of 2015 Ram 2500 (CTD) factory rear coils that were take-offs from a buddies truck when he installed a lift. I'd swap them out but I am not so sure they are the same height seeing how the PW has a taller suspension when compared to the standard 2500 4x4. Does anyone here know if they would work without requiring me to add a spacer or have a negative rake?

 

[Wallygator]

Keep the PW and tow an off road capable camper like one of the Black Series. Best of both worlds and one sweet and capable base camp

https://www.blackseriescamper.com/

 

[SixLug]

So in the aviation business, if an aircraft buyer is looking for a plane, we ask "what is your mission, and what is your mission profile?" Johnny NewBuyer may come in and say "I want a cabin class twin engine airplane that seats 8." Well, what is your mission? "I want to fly my wife and I to see our kids once a month." And what is your mission profile? "The flight is about an hour, at 5000 feet on average." OK, well, a cabin class twin that seats 8 may not be the best fit for that mission....It has a very expensive entry point, very expensive on maintenance, high insurance and pilot requirements, and is a lot of airplane for two people at low altitude for an hour....Maybe something like a smaller single engine high performance airplane would fit better. "Yeah that sounds great!"

This happens all the time. So my questions to you would be, what is your mission, and what is your mission profile? Are you ABLE to afford a new diesel, to include its entry point, insurance, maintenance, fuel, DEF, upgrades, etc (don't answer this here, just a question to evaluate)? If you are ABLE, are you WILLING to part with that much money? If you are WILLING, what is your mission profile? % highway vs. % off road? % off road vs. % gnarly off road (dirt roads vs. rock crawling)? Will the heavier weight of the diesel ACTUALLY be that big of a deal if your only off road 10% of the time? What % of the year do you spend in the camper? Can you get away with upgrading your current platform to handle the weight of the FWC for the % of time you use it? ETC ETC.

The questions of "what is your mission" and "what is your mission profile" have become a big help to me, even outside of aviation. It really helps keep my head grounded. I would love 37s and an OVRLND camper and an ARB winch bumper and and and, but right now, none of that comes close to fulfilling the mission that I use my truck for, which 99% of the time is driving 40 miles of interstate one way to work 5-6 days a week, hauling our kid and dogs, house duties, etc. Hopefully that changes for me (that is why we are on this board right?) but for now, small AT's and a mostly stock truck are the best thing for my mission.

 

[ttengineer]

Here are my thoughts on the subject.

If it were me in your situation I’d trade the PW for a SRW 3500 crew cab chassis Laramie with the Aisin tranny.

I’d then upgrade the suspension to a full Carli 3” kit with airbags and daystar cradles in the rear.

Delete the truck at the same time. Who has had engine issues with a Cummins that isn’t EGR or DPF related?

Add flat bed of your choice and go.

Now, personally I feel if you do the right mods to the diesel it greatly reduces the operation costs.

Add an additional oil and fuel filter and it takes your maintenance intervals to well over 10k miles. That alone can be made up cost wise in under two oil changes. The fuel filter kit is around $200 and the bypass oil filter is around $200 as well, depending on what kit you run.

Mileage will also increase with the diesel if you regear and delete. On 37s a regeared and deleted Cummins should get 18+ on the highway (I’ve seen numbers as high as 26mpg with stock tires), with a loaded camper I don’t see why you couldn’t get at least 15 if driven correctly.

As far as off road prowess, I actually like the added weight. Paired with the torque on the diesel and 37s I’ve found it to be quite stable and confidence inspiring in challenging situations. I’m not rock crawling though.

I’ve never heard that mileage is worse on a flat bed vs standard fleetside though. I would think it creates less drag, but I’ve never seen one in a wind tunnel.


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[Tex68w]

So in the aviation business, if an aircraft buyer is looking for a plane, we ask "what is your mission, and what is your mission profile?" Johnny NewBuyer may come in and say "I want a cabin class twin engine airplane that seats 8." Well, what is your mission? "I want to fly my wife and I to see our kids once a month." And what is your mission profile? "The flight is about an hour, at 5000 feet on average." OK, well, a cabin class twin that seats 8 may not be the best fit for that mission....It has a very expensive entry point, very expensive on maintenance, high insurance and pilot requirements, and is a lot of airplane for two people at low altitude for an hour....Maybe something like a smaller single engine high performance airplane would fit better. "Yeah that sounds great!"

This happens all the time. So my questions to you would be, what is your mission, and what is your mission profile? Are you ABLE to afford a new diesel, to include its entry point, insurance, maintenance, fuel, DEF, upgrades, etc (don't answer this here, just a question to evaluate)? If you are ABLE, are you WILLING to part with that much money? If you are WILLING, what is your mission profile? % highway vs. % off road? % off road vs. % gnarly off road (dirt roads vs. rock crawling)? Will the heavier weight of the diesel ACTUALLY be that big of a deal if your only off road 10% of the time? What % of the year do you spend in the camper? Can you get away with upgrading your current platform to handle the weight of the FWC for the % of time you use it? ETC ETC.

The questions of "what is your mission" and "what is your mission profile" have become a big help to me, even outside of aviation. It really helps keep my head grounded. I would love 37s and an OVRLND camper and an ARB winch bumper and and and, but right now, none of that comes close to fulfilling the mission that I use my truck for, which 99% of the time is driving 40 miles of interstate one way to work 5-6 days a week, hauling our kid and dogs, house duties, etc. Hopefully that changes for me (that is why we are on this board right?) but for now, small AT's and a mostly stock truck are the best thing for my mission.

My mission is to be self-contained within the truck which means I'd prefer not to be towing a trailer if I don't have to. There are a few reasons behind this. For staters the gasser doesn't do well with a trailer in terms of fuel economy, I'd see 10-12 mpg with a 4,000 lb trailer and the added liability and hassle of the trailer would limit my ability to more easily explore certain areas and trails without having to leave the trailer and come back for it. Having a camper within the bed of the truck allows me the ability to go pretty much wherever the truck would go under normal circumstances without a trailer. This also allows us to boon-dock/camp wherever we are or when we please and not be forced into a base camp that we must return to. Granted this is within reason, there will always be a trail we don't fit down, or an area that doesn't allow one to boon-dock or camp outside of sanctioned areas but at least with in an in bed camper we have those options available to us.

The profile is 75/25 on-road to off-road. I use the truck around town during the week and we travel on the weekends, this requires highway time to get where we need to go. Texas is a big state with 97% private property ownership so 99.9% of your travels will be on public roads and for long distances. I take the truck to the coast at least once a week when time and schedule allows, there it sees use in 4wd running down the beach in soft and often deep sand and traversing trails in the back lakes as I attempt to get close to feeding redfish on the flats. I take it to our ranch a few times a month to hunt, shoot, and check on cattle and there it sees tight trails in sticky clay like mud and off camber situations with limestone rock and loose shale and sandy/muddy creek crossings.
I have no real necessity for a larger payload other than to more safely accommodate the camper but as we've already established this can be handled in the PW with airbags (that I am already installing) and possibly a spring upgrade out back. The PW can easily tow in terms of its rated capacity anything I'll put behind it but again it comes back to it's less than stellar economy when doing so. I have no plans to go smaller in terms of lift/tires so either truck will be on 37's, possibly larger. I plan to re-gear either truck so that's a given and an added cost to either platform. The added up front weight of the diesel will be noticed when off-road, I now this first hand with my previous diesels, but in most situations it isn't too much of a detriment. There is nothing that can be done in regards to the added purchase price, maintenance, and fuel that will accompany the diesel, it's all just part of the program. The delta between the added expenses of initial purchase and cost of ownership will likely never be bridged so one most likely can't justify the move on that statistic alone.

We have a lot of long distance trips planned in the coming years and some of those will require the truck to be self-sustainable for days at a time and will require the truck to be capable off-road so if we do make a move to the diesel it will certainly need those off-road upgrades that the PW already has. In regards to the flatbed camper having more room it certainly does but it's becoming evident that the shift needed to justify that accommodation and its perks may not be worth the trouble. The more I examine this the more I realize that running a standard slide-in FWC is more than likely the best and certainly the more feasible answer. The only other viable option is to replace the 4Runner with the flatbed diesel and have two trucks, but that hinges on what momma is willing to sacrifice.

 

[kmacafee]

With the exception of the diesel conundrum, I just went from a Tacoma with a FWC Eagle to a Ram 3500 gasser, an aluminum flatbed and a Bundutec camper. I intentionally avoided the diesel because of reduced payload, higher maintenance costs and the fact I rarely if ever tow anything. The camper weighs 2000 pounds dry which is significantly heavier than a FWC. I just had the whole rig weighed with a full tank of gas and loaded with most of the gear I typically carry and I am 1000 pounds under max GVWR. I debated a 3/4 ton truck and a diesel but am very happy with the setup I have. Mileage on the highway at 65 mph is 15-16 mpg and around town closer to 11 mpg. Its a beast for sure and living in the city, I'm not using it for grocery runs but on the highway, it is a great ride.

You should check out Bundtec for campers. Yes, they are wood frame construction rather than aluminum but after looking at their construction process, I'm confident it will hold up. And, they will customize your build, something I know FWC will not do. The additional room and storage in the camper is amazing.

I'm headed to Plano, Texas next week and if you are nearby, could arrange to meet so you can see it.

 

[Dalko43]

To me going out and buying a new diesel truck at a price north of $50-60k and then deleting the emissions junk to then kill the engine warranty in the process is pure insanity.

Thankfully, you don't have to do either: you can buy a moderately used diesel 3/4 or 1 ton at a decent discount and you can keep the the emissions intact and preserve your warranty.

I find it interesting that those who most often complain about the emissions woes seem to have the least experience with them. The modern diesels work relatively well. If stuff starts to fall apart at the 350k-400k mile mark, I might consider deleting. But the narrative that these newer diesels are ticking time bombs which need to be deleted ASAP is a false one. Recalls and software optimizations have addressed most of the major reliability issues.

I have no plans to go smaller in terms of lift/tires so either truck will be on 37's, possibly larger. I plan to re-gear either truck so that's a given and an added cost to either platform. The added up front weight of the diesel will be noticed when off-road, I now this first hand with my previous diesels, but in most situations it isn't too much of a detriment. There is nothing that can be done in regards to the added purchase price, maintenance, and fuel that will accompany the diesel, it's all just part of the program. The delta between the added expenses of initial purchase and cost of ownership will likely never be bridged so one most likely can't justify the move on that statistic alone.

You're contemplating selling a vehicle, which you just recently bought brand new, and replacing it with another brand new vehicle....the finances are what they are. If the finances were your only concern, you'd be better off owning and using your current vehicle for the next 10 years before buying another one.

It sounds like the PW will work just fine for your needs, but if you want the diesel and can afford it, then go ahead and get it. Want vs need don't always have to marry up, especially if money isn't an issue. Very few on here actually need a front bumper, sliders, 2" of lift and a +1 tire size...and yet the 'overland' crowd trends that way.

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

Tex, I've seen yours or variant of your predicament over and over again on RV.net's Truck Camper section. You've already taken a hit with the new PW. There's no way to get that money back unless you find a PW hungry/crazy buyer that might take up some of your loss. The PW is in demand. The consensus with folks who have trod your same path was mixed. Some just could not take the flexy springs of the PW and sold it. Some worked for a goodly amount of time with lots of weight carrying replacement springs, shocks, heavier anti sway bars, Stable Loads, re gearing for taller tires. How long do you plan to keep said rig? You seem antsy to move on, which tells me you want to stay with a gasser as it take 225K miles with a diesel platform to recoup the "diesel penalty" with the original price. Always, always, (did i say always?) the cheapest way to go is fix up what you have and install a camper that will fit your NEEDS (and of course, your spouse) and GET USED TO IT. This may take a lot of fixing over a period of time. It takes some time to get to the, "old shoe" stage with an off-road equipped truck camper. And, of course, an MT PW will be a lot more fun DD than a diesel. This is the same logic i used when we bought a 3-year old Lance Lite camper to go on our brand new 2001.5 RAM 4WD 2500 H.O. Cummins SB 6-speed manual. I'll admit to a lot of luck swirling around here, wrapping up the sale in one afternoon, paying $6500 cash and getting 15 years and hundreds of glorious nights in 'the box' in any weather, any season, any road condition, and able to park in a regular parking spot. At the time the Lance 165-s was the lightest (1842 wet), least tall, least wide, N/S bed, full featured hardside available. Remember, a hard side does not change shape when you retire for the night, a nice feature for layovering in the city.
Another approach is to start looking for a used truck camper combo that's already been shaken down. As we get older our perspective changes and what was once really important subsides into fewer and different important things. So, TODAY, somewhere in the U.S., there are dozens of older truck campers who have paid their due dilligence with their camper and are now planning to unload the whole thing. I see them all around in No. CA and on Craigslist. You may have to cast your net wide to find the right one, and be willing to drive thousands of miles to get said right one, but they're out there.
regards, jefe

 

[Explorerinil]

Here are my thoughts on the subject.

If it were me in your situation I’d trade the PW for a SRW 3500 crew cab chassis Laramie with the Aisin tranny.

I’d then upgrade the suspension to a full Carli 3” kit with airbags and daystar cradles in the rear.

Delete the truck at the same time. Who has had engine issues with a Cummins that isn’t EGR or DPF related?

Add flat bed of your choice and go.

Now, personally I feel if you do the right mods to the diesel it greatly reduces the operation costs.

Add an additional oil and fuel filter and it takes your maintenance intervals to well over 10k miles. That alone can be made up cost wise in under two oil changes. The fuel filter kit is around $200 and the bypass oil filter is around $200 as well, depending on what kit you run.

Mileage will also increase with the diesel if you regear and delete. On 37s a regeared and deleted Cummins should get 18+ on the highway (I’ve seen numbers as high as 26mpg with stock tires), with a loaded camper I don’t see why you couldn’t get at least 15 if driven correctly.

As far as off road prowess, I actually like the added weight. Paired with the torque on the diesel and 37s I’ve found it to be quite stable and confidence inspiring in challenging situations. I’m not rock crawling though.

I’ve never heard that mileage is worse on a flat bed vs standard fleetside though. I would think it creates less drag, but I’ve never seen one in a wind tunnel.


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I agree 100%! Plus you just mentioned my exact truck accept for mine is not deleted. The Aisin trans is rock sold, plus over 900 ft torque really help when towing/hauling. I plan on deleting mine and running a stock tune the first time I have any emissions issues.