Land Cruiser axles, engine etc... Will it blend?

[Ndmker]

an aftermarket turbo may be the solution to your power concerns.
I am told that a good exhaust system and a turbo on these engines makes a noticeable improvement with driveability.

I was also thinking about an upgrade but that still leaves me with a manual transmission and two-wheel drive. If I start to throw parts at the truck (genuine Canter front axle, transfer case, etc.) I will end up with a lot of wasted time and the costs will be high. I might as well drop in an engine/tranny/t-case/axle combo which is almost readily available in Europe.

However I am starting to have some doubts. All the Canters I have seen are kind of low. Absolutely not similar to what I see in threads over here. Is it only a question of increased height due to the front axle in a 4x4 or maybe some other differences in frame/cabin measurements? Maybe there is a specialist who knows about the different canter versions.

What I am usually looking at is a Canter with a 3.5T GVM flatbed length of around 3.5-4.5m and engine displacement somewhere below 3.0L. The outside width of the cabin is somewhere around 1,9m, height from bottom of bumper to roof around 1,9m, wheel tread 165cm. Frame width near radiator is around 70cm. Does it differ much from the 4x4 versions?

I am also worried if I will manage to keep the weight in the 3.5T limit because the Land Cruiser axles and alloy rims were probably designed for a weight no greater than that. I am about to buy a used FZJ80 in two-three days so it's your last chance to tell me if my idea is feasible or ultimately stupid...

Some photos of one of the trucks I was looking at.

 

[whatcharterboat]

However I am starting to have some doubts. All the Canters I have seen are kind of low. Absolutely not similar to what I see in threads over here. Is it only a question of increased height due to the front axle in a 4x4 or maybe some other differences in frame/cabin measurements? Maybe there is a specialist who knows about the different canter versions.

Yes. If you put a 4wd Canter axle under this FE you are looking at then it will be the same height as an FG but the rear will need to be lifted....that's why the FG has a step in it behind the transfercase. However you could raise the rear of the FE suspension to achieve a similar effect.

What I am usually looking at is a Canter with a 3.5T GVM flatbed length of around 3.5-4.5m and engine displacement somewhere below 3.0L. The outside width of the cabin is somewhere around 1,9m, height from bottom of bumper to roof around 1,9m, wheel tread 165cm. Frame width near radiator is around 70cm. Does it differ much from the 4x4 versions?

Your cab should be identical to a FG 637. Mostly the same part numbers except for the 4wd lever under the dash. Where you may run into trouble using FG parts would be with the LHD steering. Sure Fuso bring the FG out in LHD but try to find these parts at a wrecker at a reasonable price. Easy enough here but shipping and the exchange rate with our high Australian dollar would be a killer. Genuine parts would make it an easy conversion here but over in your part of the world....maybe the 4wd cruiser parts might be hugely cheaper even if the amount of fabrication and modification would be considerably more. Is it really worth it ??? So much work.......

You can do anything I guess but .....

I am also worried if I will manage to keep the weight in the 3.5T limit because the Land Cruiser axles and alloy rims were probably designed for a weight no greater than that. I am about to buy a used FZJ80 in two-three days so it's your last chance to tell me if my idea is feasible or ultimately stupid...

Landcruiser stuff is not the strongest running gear around.

 

[LukeH]

Wait a minute.
Pick up the stick by the other end and see how it's easier to hold.
Let me elaborate:
You want a Mitsu because it's forward control, you want to convert it to 4x4 for all the obvious reasons, you are thinking of using Toyota parts for all the reasons cited already in this thread.
But
Anyone who reads this forum knows that the Mitsu chassis are about as rigid as cooked spaghetti, and certain Australian contributors have spent many many man-hours developing ways of coping with this it's thair full time job, and you want to do it in your back yard?
Imagine you do splice Toy driveline into a Mitsu chassis, the rubber mounts from front of engine to rear of TC have to cope with the horrific twist of the Mitsu chassis, they're just not made for it. Even if you keep to gravel roads the twist of the 4x2 chassis is greater than with the Toyota chassis. And you fancy going travelling with an untried hybrid and a small child?
Hmmm.
So you'd have to fab up engine mounts, gearbox mounts TC mounts, suspension lifts, custom propshafts front&rear spring saddles and who knows what else.
You'd be drawn into the “torsion free subframe” debate; a subject populated by way too many “experts” very few of whom are mechanical engineers with actual chassis design experience (one day I'll set a few misconceptions straight in that thread); so a full torsion free subframe to think about.

Or
You could use a tried and tested 4x4 chassis, completely compatible with the Toyota running gear, with the axles at the right height, the suspension properly integrated into the design as they were made for each other.
Two front cab mounts and a rear cab hook are all that is necessary to graft a Mitsu cab onto the Toyota chassis. You can set the three mounts at exactly the right height for the clearance, instead of farting around with unknown suspension lifts. The Auto box linkage isn't going to be an issue. And all the other connections with the engine you would have had to do anyway.
Wheelbase too short? A pure Toyota frame stretch is way simpler than all the fab work involved in a Mitsu conversion. The Toyota frame is much stiffer, you can transfer the tray back over directly and off you go. Might have to relocate the batteries and swap the fuel tank over, but that's peanuts compared to the Mitsu work.
You can then benefit from the enourmous upgrade market available for Toyotas for suspension, underbody, transmission you name it someone's made an upgrade for a Toyota.
Can you say the same about Mitsubishis?

But
Is it really worth it?
Cost up all that work and compare it to the cost of a HGV licence. Both in time and in money.
OK sub 7.5 tonne trucks are overpriced because of the old C1 category that came automatically with the licence, but they remain a small truck, are a lot less hassle than the splice you propose and you run much less risk of overloading the components. Running costs aren't that much more and you would be amazed at the motricity of larger diameter wheels.

And we haven't even touched on the administration involved in modifying a vehicle this heavily, but that depends on the country…

Really think about the licence issue, it always amazes me how many people would prefer to heavily modify a vehicle that is not designed for real loads over long distances and run a higher risk of breakage and fines for overloading, rather than just take another driving course and test that gives them access to cheaper stronger vehicles.
Ok so they're slower, so what? 250 hp is really useful parked on a beautiful beach for a week. Large diameter tyres will get you through much more than a heavy right foot in a smaller vehicle. And feel better on untarred roads. Greater ground clearance etc.etc.

A sub 3.5 tonne 4x4 proper motorhome (i.e. standing height the full length, shower & toilet) is possible, but only with the kind of modelling, analysis and simulation tools necessary in a full ground-up design as used in the motor vehicle industry. Trying to do it from an existing vehicle is always going to be right on the limit.

But then that's just my opinion, and who am I to talk, I'm creating a double cab on a 14 tonne truck.

 

[Ndmker]

Luke, many thanks for the detailed and almost passionate reply. I was thinking about using a Land Cruiser chassis a long time ago, but didn't find anything about it so I considered the idea stupid. But your opinion gave me a second perspective and perhaps this should be the way to go. The Land Cruiser frame is wider and stiffer than the Mitsu one. It is a closed design all over and with full-length welds. No bolts. I've calculated that I will need to lengthen the frame by no more than around 40-80cm to approach quite a decent wheelbase. In stock form it is 2,85m and I think that 3,4 will be good enough.

The only problem I see is the steering. The Land cruiser steering box is close to the wheel and has the input shaft angles towards the rear. The Mitsu, however, has the steering box closer to the frame end and the input shaft is vertical because the cab is on top of it. Not good.

 

[LukeH]

Hiya,
I would recommend using the whole front section of the Mitsu chassis. Frame, front pivots, including steering box and also the linkage backwards to the follower that turns the fore-aft output of the steering box into side to side for the axle. Include a cross-member if only to hold the bits of chassis rail at the right spacing, if there isn’t one pop one in before cutting; you can always (re)move it if necessary.
One reason is that you then have the front cab mounts all ready and only need to make up an adapter for the width difference between the two chassis.
The other reason is that certain Toyotas (remind me which one you’re looking at) have a crumple zone in front of the axle, and would need reinforcing to be able to support a 200kg “bumper attachment”. Which is essentially what it is, half the weight of the cab up front, the other half on the rear cab hook. I guesstimate 400 kg equipped with two people in it.

Transfer the Mitsu follower to where the Toyota steering box is mounted and your steering geometry is unaffected; the small angular change isn’t going to be an issue for the fore-aft shaft.
One little thing, hard working hdj80s tend to crack around the panhard rod attachment to the chassis, which coincidentally is where the steering box is mounted. I don’t know if the same goes for the other models but we can safely consider your hybrid as hard working. There are plenty of tips and designs on the internet for reinforcing that zone.

To extend the chassis remember that an unrelieved weld is considered by engineers as the start of a crack. If you have the facilities to strip the chassis and send it in for stress relieving all the better, but I suspect not. Make sure your fish-mouthed extension gussets are long enough to put the welds in a low stress zone.

This would be a lovely project, I really think you could make a fun vehicle here. All the capabilities of a lwb Toyota with a forward cab configuration. At 3.5tonnes you’re up at the limits, and will be forced to perform certain after market Toyota upgrades. You’ll also have to skimp on the camper furniture (buy a wrecked sub 3.5T FWD euro camper, their furniture is light) and water tanks.
A fast lightweight capable vehicle… sounds great.

My (fireside dreaming) version of this is even more bizarre: A Tatra 805 backbone chassis modified to 6x6 with Pinz parts, rear engine, auto box with an integrated one piece camper body that includes the cab. Advantage is that the T805 central tube doesn’t twist, just like its bigger brothers. Disadvantage is the T805 predates the Pinz (Steyr copied Tatra) and as such the braking technology is, well, pathetic.

Nevertheless do look into the cost of a licence upgrade, in terms of your time and your money I believe that a 7.5 tonne truck could be easier, quicker (to build) and cheaper (time is money), if somewhat slower to drive.

 

[Ndmker]

I was also thinking about using the Mitsu steering box and at then a linkage at the location where the Land Cruiser steering box is supposed to be. With such a linkage it would be easy to change fore-aft motion into lef-right. I think that using the front section of the Mitsu frame is just too much work and weight. I think that I will save weight without sacrificing rigidity by just reinforcing the LC frame and fabricating the proper mounts for the cab pivots. I think that the 4.2 or 4.5 LC engine sits higher above the frame than the Canter one so the cab will need to be raised above the frame anyway. If I use the front part of the Mitsu frame, I will have to cut it in order to make it wider, then somehow make it sit higher etc... If the cab needs to be raised as much as the height of the Mitsu frame, then it's OK: I put the Mitsu frame on the LC frame and weld them together. But if the nedessary lift is smaller, then it wil be much easier to make it from scratch.

I don't have the possibility to relieve stress on the welds, but I think that just taking my time with welding will be OK. I guess that making shorter weld distances at a time doesn't create that much stress because the metal doesn't heat up that much and expand only to contract and remain in constant tension/stress.

I am also aware that the LC drivetrain/chassis is massive and heavy. My LX450 (FZJ80) weighs around 2.5T total, and I assume that without the body it would be around 1,5-1,8T. That leaves little weight for the furnished camper body. But on the other hand I have some experience with typical/road campers and I can (and will) use ultralight Ceiba/Kapok wood, lots of aluminum (I can weld alu) and other lightweight materials. I am also in the process of discussing the project with carbon fiber companies so maybe I will also use carbon fiber in some places.

Currently my plan for the camper body is to use steel only for the frour corners. It's like creating a cube made of steel. All the reinforcements for the floor, walls and ceiling will be aluminium tubing. The framing will be covered with a thin layer of fiberglass woven roving or maybe carbon fiber in some large areas. It can be really thin as it is just a cover and has no support function. The insulation is going to be light XPS (extruded polystyrene) and on top of it the interior material of my choice, probably 4mm ceiba plywood (feather light) covered with alcantara. I have previously used alcantara and it really gives a warm, cozy feeling while being easy to clean and not absorbing moisture because it is coated with teflon. So my assumption is that I will be able to stay below 3.5T.

Having a licence for a veicle over 3.5T is probably not a problem compared to using it over here. There is a yearly tax (quite high) for veicles over 3.5T. Many free roads (not only highways) become toll roads. I will need to have a tachograph installed and inspected twice a year (for a fee) and I will also be subject to different driving rules (limited driving time, limited speed, proper rest intervals etc.). My wife would also be unable to drive the truck so it limits my daily distance range. Oh, and toll highways have much higher fees for over 3.5T vehicles. So with all that fuss I prefer to stay below that weight limit, even it if costs me a little bit more.

 

[LukeH]

Just sitting the Mitsu chassis on top with a few adaptors is kind of what I was thinking.
If the cab tilt is by torsion bar then you’ll need to keep at least 30cm of Mitsu chassis just to the torsion bar has a lever.
I don’t think the height of the engine is going to be the deciding factor; before you strip off the Toyota get it crossed up with a wheel in the air and see how high the front wheel pushes up into the wheel well. You’ll have to measure it relative to the chassis to know how high to put the cab. It’s possible you’ll need to either find a narrower radiator, or work out a way of putting it in front of and tipping with the cab. Move the grill forward and pass the hoses via the pivot point.
Now, the box.
When reading your construction method I have to confess to rolling my eyes upwards. Metallic frame construction has it’s place I’ll recognise: on oil rigs, ships, bridges, 747s and other equally obsolete things.
For decades now refrigerated van converters have been building very tough lightweight bodies with a view to tolerating floppy lightweight car/van chassis while being able to put up with bumps and scratches, easily repairable with a bit of fibre charged resin.
And light! The newer 3.5 tonne rule means that there is a proliferation of fridge vans designed to optimise the limited loading capacity without using up too much of that capacity for the box.
Two minutes on Mobile.de brought up these: http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDetails.html?id=133380749&lang=en&__lp=62&scopeId=VUT75&sortOption.sortBy=searchNetGrossPrice&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&vehicleCategory=VanUpTo7500&segment=Truck&negativeFeatures=EXPORT&grossPrice=false&category=RefrigeratorBox&pageNumber=1 absolutely perfect for what you need. Don’t like the door? Silicone it up and cut your own; they’re self supporting and soo easy to work on. The corners already have alu strips for branches to slide on, you just have to meet them with branch deflectors mounted on the cab. There are longer ones you can cut down; and that's without compromising the box's strength.
WestySS has a build thread here showing just how good this stuff is to work with. You could even glue up your own, there are several suppliers around Europe who will make panels to measure (but it’s pricey)
Before cutting up the Mitsu, drive up to Warsaw and pick up a box. On the relatively stiff Toyota chassis you could easily get away with simple rubber mounts rather than add a heavy torsion free subframe. I promise you a plastic box will be up to the job, and in terms of insulation you won’t get better.
Hell there’s even a high performance cooling system you can plumb into the Toyota’s aircon compressor, a three way valve could direct the cooling back, front or both..

I passed a relatively modern looking Dyna this morning, looked like another potential donor. Maybe being Toyota there are a few parts in common. Maybe not.
Of course you can do what you like, these are nothing more than my opinions based on what I've experienced.
However all over Europe and in North America if a vehicle is registered as a Motor Caravan there is no tacho obligation whether it's 4 or 14 tonnes. In the Us you're even allowed to drive one of those huge bus motorhomes on a car licence. In France the toll roads are height based so your low one should slip through. In Spain it's the number of wheels, so super singles are the way to go.
Happy planning.

 

[SkiFreak]

Hell there's even a high performance cooling system you can plumb into the Toyota's aircon compressor, a three way valve could direct the cooling back, front or both..

Do you have more info on this? A link maybe...