Land Rover Discovery Suspensions: Caster

[sinuhexavier]

Mike speaks the truth.

Not many in the Rover community know more about Discovery 1's than the Rupp brothers.

 

[I Leak Oil]

Sounds like there's more than one way to skin a cat. Which is better? I guess that's a matter of opinion and money!
Jason T.

 

[Mike_rupp]

Mike speaks the truth.

Not many in the Rover community know more about Discovery 1's than the Rupp brothers.

Thanks for the compliment. The truth of the matter is that my brother does all of the hands on learning and I write on the web about it.

 

[Scott Brady]

It seems that your method didn't take all of the variables into account at the start. It seems that you bought the radius arms to solve one issue but then had to deal with unintended consequences.

I am not sure why you would assume that. Inland Rovers advised that a DDC prop-shaft would probably be required, just as a DC shaft required for your method.

All of these methods are quite elementary and well documented. I have researched them all, and chose the arm/DDC solution. IMO, it is a very elegant solution, and quite simple when compared to the radius arms to correct pinion / drilled swivels to correct caster / DC shaft to correct vibrations at the transfer case end. The entire process took about an hour, and now I have no vibrations, corrected caster, corrected WB and a shallower arm angle. I have not tested your method, though it seems sound and appropriate as well.

I also gained the benefit of testing a new product offering on the market. If it had not worked, I would be happy to say so and take a different approach. However, it has worked perfectly for my application.

 

[Mike_rupp]

Simple? Yes.

Elegant? No.

Sure, the method I recommended isn't a quick install, but it is the most comprehensive approach to the front end of a Discovery. My approach solves all of the issues and also has lighter driveshaft. The only downside is that it is quite a bit of work to take the front of the axle apart. This also has a benefit as well, though. You get a chance to inspect / repair the entire front end.

Testing a new product offering? Did you pay for these radius arms or were they given to you to test? If so, wouldn't you agree that you have a slight conflict of interest? I am completely unbiased in my recommendations and have never been given a product to test.

I understand that everything is working perfectly in your application. Almost every approach works fine right after the install. Most issues like a heavy driveshaft show their effects down the road a ways. My Rancho shocks were amazing when I first installed them. I loved them. After 5k miles of use, I threw them in the garbage. When I first installed my OME lift, I loved it. Less than 10k miles later, I blew up 2 rotoflexes. Then I had to install a ujoint shaft and change the suspension geometry. Get my point?

 

[Scott Brady]

Simple? Yes.

Elegant? No.

Entirely subjective. You are assuming that a slightly heavier driveshaft will have a negative effect on the pinion seal and bearing within the service life of the axle. That is an unknown and undocumented assumption. So far, that is the only negative related to my chosen method you have commented on.

I can see clearly that you believe your solution is best. I am fine with that. But for you to assume that my method is "worse" just because of the addition of one more u-joint in a driveshaft... that is a variable you and I do not share a concern on. Your solution adds a heavier driveshaft than stock as well.

This is an opportunity for discussion and for all of us to test and learn about a new solution available on the market. I enjoy testing new methods and challenging assumptions. The internet is filled with "experts" and regurgitated assumptions, wouldn't you agree...

I am not saying that the method I chose to test is perfect, or has the ultimate long-term effectiveness (it is too early in the testing to say), or that I am an expert on the front suspensions of Land Rovers (as the concepts are quite simple). However, I am thorough in my research and evaluation, and did not come to this choice lightly. That is a luxury afforded by this being my full-time job.

Testing a new product offering? Did you pay for these radius arms or were they given to you to test? If so, wouldn't you agree that you have a slight conflict of interest? I am completely unbiased in my recommendations and have never been given a product to test.

Nothing is free Mike. I have zero obligation to Inland Rovers to say their product is good, bad or indifferent. I research the products I want, use only the highest quality solutions, and call it like it is once tested. I will do the same with these arms, and if they fail, or cause the pinion seal or bearing to fail, I will be the first to say it. Right now, it is too early to say.

Sure, the method I recommended isn't a quick install, but it is the most comprehensive approach to the front end of a Discovery. My approach solves all of the issues and also has lighter driveshaft. The only downside is that it is quite a bit of work to take the front of the axle apart. This also has a benefit as well, though. You get a chance to inspect / repair the entire front end.

That all seems fair to me. As I said, your recommended solution seems to be a good one. However, I can assure you that if I felt the method you chose was the only, or "best" solution, I would have done it. I am not constrained by time, money or the complexity of an install. I only want what is the most reliable and effective. Both of our solutions functionally achieve that goal.

I am rebuilding both axles as well, as a result of the axle ratio, carrier and axle changes.

Get my point?

Yes, and time will tell the effect of a slightly heavier driveshaft, which is required in both methods. Since my front and rear axles are being entirely rebuilt, including all new bearing, seals, etc., I do not expect a slightly heavier, but zero vibration driveshaft to affect the life of these components within 100,000 miles, or even 250,000 miles.

 

[Mike_rupp]

Scott, I'm not assuming anything. I don't know what the long term effects of a heavier driveshaft will be compared to what I use. This is certain though: a lighter driveshaft is preferable to a heavier one. The difference in weight isn't insignificant. It's not just an additional u-joint. The large metal cage and centering ball are fairly heavy. The reason that I'm so against a DDC is that they are typically only used in situations where they are the only solution.

So what you are saying is that you didn't pay for the radius arms? The reason that I delved into that is that it factors into your bias regarding your front end setup. When people read this thread, you appear to most people as an authority figure. Don't you think that people might have a different take on your opinion if they knew that you didn't pay for them and might have a vested interest in having Inland Rovers being successful? Like I mentioned earlier, I have no bias. I don't know the people at Rovertym and I've paid full retail price for everything I've bought from them.

 

[craig]

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the great info.

 

[Scott Brady]

So what you are saying is that you didn't pay for the radius arms?

Mike,

I conduct my business and all of my testing with the strictest of editorial integrity. For you to indicate otherwise to bolster your argument is unfortunate, and extremely poor form.

For the most part, and nature of our business results in us receiving nearly everything we want to test at no cost. We are also happy to buy the products at cost or even retail if it is what we want, and we have.

 

[michaelgroves]

I think most people on here know Scott, at least by reputation, well enough to know that he wouldn't be dishonest because of a "freebie". Actually, it's pretty offensive of you to suggest that his opinion on the matter is clouded by a conflict of interests - don't you think he would have said so, or kept out of the discussion, had that been the case?

Regarding your major complaint about using a heavier shaft, I agree to the extent that in general extra weight on an expedition vehicle is always undesirable. Bu I seriously doubt there would be any effect on pinion longevity.The weight of the shaft will have amost zero effect on the bearing, unless it is out of balance. (A not-dissimilar wheel bearing, for example, carries its share of the weight of the entire laden truck, and tends last indefinitely unless the seal goes).

 

[Mike_rupp]

Scott, I never brought up the issue to bolster my argument. The way that I recommended to setup a front suspension doesn't need any bolstering. For the life of me, I can't see how you could possibly not realize that the way you have yours setup is at a disadvantage. For the last 7-8 years, the Discovery community has been doing trial and error and you seem to discount all of that knowledge. For someone that has fully researched the topic, it appears that you or Inland Rovers started from scratch.

Michael, you mentioned earlier that you couldn't see how there could be an angle issue at one end and not the other. If you can't even see that distinction, how can you possibly say with certainty that a heavier driveshaft won't have any negative long term effects? Why risk it? Let me state it again: a DDC shaft isn't needed.

 

[Steve Rupp]

Scott, I have absolutely no problem with you receiving parts to test and plug. I have had the same opportunity in the past. It seems though that some people will do anything not to use Rovertym products. I don't know if it's a Jeep thing or the fact that they have slimline bumpers that aren't "expedition truck" pretty but the fact is they have done more for the LR community than just about any other fabricator.

I think this might be my first post on this site and I guess I do have a conflict of interest but I have to agree with everything my brother says. Anybody will tell you that a DDC driveshaft is throwing your arms up in the air and giving up. It's not the right approach to take. Now you're also a big toyota guy. I highly doubt that FJ80 guys are using DDC driveshafts to correct any pinion angle/castor problems. They're doing exactly what RTE is doing. They're correcting pinion angle with the radius arms and while Toyotas don't have flanges for the swivel balls they're still correcting castor. The swivels on the Toyotas are welded to the axle housing. For years people have been grinding the weld on the housing at the swivel, rotating it to gain the castor desired and then welding the swivel back to the housing.

A DDC driveshaft on a disco with a 1.5" lift is not the correct direction one should take.

 

[I Leak Oil]

Surely there must be some empirical data somewhere to show a DDC shaft being the sole cause of premature pinion bearing wear if it is truely a factor. I didn't look so I don't know.
If Scott is happy with his setup and you with yours, Mike, then what's the point of all this? It's disappointing to see the discussion degrade to the point of insinuating character attacks.
Now for a locker question. Who here has changed the side gears on an ARB before? Is it difficult? I'm thinking of swapping my 10 spline front shafts for some 24 spline shafts on my series truck.
Jason T.

 

[michaelgroves]

Scott, I never brought up the issue to bolster my argument. The way that I recommended to setup a front suspension doesn't need any bolstering. For the life of me, I can't see how you could possibly not realize that the way you have yours setup is at a disadvantage. For the last 7-8 years, the Discovery community has been doing trial and error and you seem to discount all of that knowledge. For someone that has fully researched the topic, it appears that you or Inland Rovers started from scratch.

Michael, you mentioned earlier that you couldn't see how there could be an angle issue at one end and not the other. If you can't even see that distinction, how can you possibly say with certainty that a heavier driveshaft won't have any negative long term effects? Why risk it? Let me state it again: a DDC shaft isn't needed.

I see... if I get one thing wrong and acknowledge it, then obviously everything else I say can be disregarded?

I'll take people's word for it that you are an expert on these matters, and that therefore your proposed solution is a good one, technically speaking (despite seeing some practical disadvantages in it).

But your usefulness as a source of knowledge is at least partially offset by your inability to accept that other people's contrary views may be perfectly valid, and your resorting to ascribing those views to ulterior motives or general ignorance or stupidity.

This thread started as a discussion of lockers, and I have a strong view that a manually switchable full locker is a far better technical solution than an LSD
or an automatic locker. However, I respect the people on here enough to know that if they have a different view on what's best, then at the very least, it's rooted in their own experiences, and holds validity for them.

By all means argue the facts; just hold back on the personal jibes and innuendos.

 

[Steve Rupp]

Ok let's forget about the fact that the driveshaft is heavier. I've replaced a ujoint on the trail and crudely rebuilt a DC joint on the trail. Guess which one is easier. Putting a DC joint that low to the ground just opens it up for more debris to get in.

I'm not attacking anybody's credibility here, i just think people should hear alternative options for building a truck and making up their mind on what has been presented.