Let's talk making great images.

[Lost Canadian]

One of the most important aspects that no one has touched on yet is critiquing. It is very important for any photographer/artist -especially 'Developing photographers' to know how to take a critique. It is beneficial to be able to know how to give a critique as well but that comes as confidence is increased with experience and knowledge.

I have recommended photo forums before and will continue to do so because if anyone is serious about getting better they need to put their work out in front of other people beyond this community.

I agree with seeking critique, but where those seeking review go wrong is they fail to explain what they saw, their intent, or what may have been going on around them. A little info and context by the individual seeking critque goes a long way in helping the reviewer understand what they are trying to say. I also think it helps if the individual critiques their own work before hand as well. I see so many people who you know just took the shot, go "that nice" throw it up for review right away, and they never really give it much thought as to what they actually like about it or what may not be working.

I also think it's good to keep things in perspective as someone seeking review and as a reviewer. Not everyone will understand or appreciate your work, and you can't expect them to. There is a lot of fine art images out there that I don't fully embrace but that's not to say they are not brilliant works of art. That's what's great about all mediums of art including photography, there's something for everyone.

 

[Lost Canadian]

These discussions help to make me a better teacher. Thanks to everyone who contributes.

EDIT: They also help to make me a better photographer.

To see a REALLY cool animation that will help visually explain the concept of The Golden Mean a little better, GO HERE.

I agree, and am really happy this thread is progressing so well. I'm also on board with something you said before Michael, and that is that this is one of the better photo forums going.

...and that animation,...way cool! It really helps illustrate how mass and scale apply to the equation much better than a simple diagram.

 

[Overland Hadley]

Why begin with, claim, suggest, or even imply, that there is a rule if we are to simply turn around and say now break these rules. Breaking rules properly? What does that even mean?

It is hard to know what it means. I had a music teacher that spent a lot of time teaching me about that, he was a truly great jazz musician so he knew what he was talking about. I think it can transfer over to the image making world. Think of it this way, you have to know how to expose film properly, to know how to under or over expose film.

 

[Overland Hadley]

Nathanael, there is a photographer who I have followed for a while that I think you may appreciate. Marcel Rawady shoots using a style very similar to that of Japanese ink brush painters. The images are beautiful in their simplicity and tone. They are so light and airy they feel as though they may just float away.

Thanks for the link! I was not aware of his work.

 

[Lost Canadian]

It is hard to know what it means. I had a music teacher that spent a lot of time teaching me about that, he was a truly great jazz musician so he knew what he was talking about. I think it can transfer over to the image making world. Think of it this way, you have to know how to expose film properly, to know how to under or over expose film.

I guess the question then becomes what is a proper exposure and who defined it as such? What if I where to say that a "proper exposure" is nothing more than the middle, with nothing intrinsically more proper, right, or desired. I do know what you're saying though, I just think when you begin by putting restictions on creativity with so called "rules," right away you suppress creativity.

Speaking from personal experience I know how easy it is to get hung up on even mild suggestion as it can be tough to move beyond what everyone says must be done in order to create an acceptable representation. If it were not for a personal desire to move beyond what are the typical talking points of image making I would be no further along today then I was after my first months with a camera. It took me a while to break out of the mindset that thirds is where it's at. It was only when I turned to art books for greater understanding that things began to click for me in terms of making images the way I see things. That's when I understood that it has nothing to do with thirds, but everything to do with balance. Balance I get, speaking in thirds, at least for me, didn't add up that well in terms of creativity and desired compositions.

 

[photoman]

I agree with seeking critique, but where those seeking review go wrong is they fail to explain what they saw, their intent, or what may have been going on around them. A little info and context by the individual seeking critque goes a long way in helping the reviewer understand what they are trying to say. I also think it helps if the individual critiques their own work before hand as well. I see so many people who you know just took the shot, go "that nice" throw it up for review right away, and they never really give it much thought as to what they actually like about it or what may not be working.

I also think it's good to keep things in perspective as someone seeking review and as a reviewer. Not everyone will understand or appreciate your work, and you can't expect them to. There is a lot of fine art images out there that I don't fully embrace but that's not to say they are not brilliant works of art. That's what's great about all mediums of art including photography, there's something for everyone.

I feel a little differently about a quality critique. I believe it is a process.

The image is placed with nothing more than than a title. The image is evaluated on its own- without context, without explanation, or the intent of the artist. This resembles viewing art in a gallery or a museum.
What does the image say or speak to the person viewing it? What is the viewers thoughts on the technical aspects of the work? The artistic side? This step allows the artist to understand the viewer and what is important to that particular viewer. It also forces the viewer to be objective and think beyond whether the artist accomplished their intended goal.

Next- the artist explains the image. Tells the story of its vision and the process. Technical information can be discussed here such as EXIF, angles, post process technique as well the artists style. This allows the viewer to understand the artist/photographer, the work, and the intended message.

Lastly- the viewer provides feedback on the newly gathered information. Does the image portray the image the photographer intended? Does it carry the message the photogrpaher intended? Is there advice that can be given to the photographer to adjust the current image i.e. - crop, post process work, etc. What can be done differently if the photographer was going to reshoot this shot?

The photographer/artist then has received objective feedback of the image on its own as well as direct feedback to the intended purpose. It is then in the photographers hand to evaluate the information he/she has received and determine what, if anything, is to be done. This is the second internal critique - the first being when the image was processed and chosen to be shared. This is the more difficult internal critique that takes some time to work through and develop a course of action. Do they hold to their image as is, do they make some adjustments, do they reshoot with the same purpose, or do they completely change the original purpose and shoot a different subject, scene, or message?


As Trevor points out- this is far from what is normally asked or received in online forums and even in photography groups/clubs. Far form the "Its nice", "Great shot", "Not tack sharp", or "too centered" we have all given and received. This style of critique takes time, takes knowledge, and more importantly the desire to be better (both giving and receiving). This is something that I bet only a few of us have done on multiple occassions but something non of us do on regular occassion.

For 2010 I want to be active in quality critiques- both giving and receiving.

 

[taco2go]

Great thread, with valuable insight from some very respectable artists . On Photoman’s continum I’m probably at the distal end of the “developing” stage – It’s been about 15 months now and I'm only just starting to feel comfortable putting my images “out there” for critique.
I have begun to deliberately study pictures and form my own assessment of what the photographer’s motivation for perspective and mood may have been. (Old issues of National Geographic are great for this.) I find this helps me better reflect on my own vision/goal when I’m out hunting for images.

 

[Overland Hadley]

Balance I get, speaking in thirds, at least for me, didn't add up that well in terms of creativity and desired compositions.

We both work to find balance, we just work differently.

One aspect for me is the ground glass of my view camera has grid lines. I do not compose an image and think I need to count grid lines, but the grid (or graph) lines are a part of the process I use to compose a photograph.

All this talk of thirds has me thinking.
Do you think my work can too simply be broken into thirds? Or, do some of my compositions bug you because they look "ruled" by thirds?
www.KuenzliPhotography.com

 

[Lost Canadian]

I feel a little differently about a quality critique. I believe it is a process.

The image is placed with nothing more than than a title. The image is evaluated on its own- without context, without explanation, or the intent of the artist. This resembles viewing art in a gallery or a museum.

I guess I see a difference between critique and evaluation. If I go to a gallery I'm not there to critique, I evaluate, it's more of an internalized reflection of how the work makes me feel. Where I see a critique as something where both the artist and reviewer work toward a goal of improved expression. This is where I would personally like a little context in order to provide the best possible feedback.

 

[Lost Canadian]

We both work to find balance, we just work differently.

Absolutely.

All this talk of thirds has me thinking.
Do you think my work can too simply be broken into thirds? Or, do some of my compositions bug you because they look "ruled" by thirds?
www.KuenzliPhotography.com

You're work is wonderful. Nothing about them bugs me in the least, and they certainly don't look ruled by any one artistic philosophy. No, quite the contrary I would say, your work is a nice reflection of your vision, one I happen to enjoy for what it's worth. I would also add that you clearly have an understanding beyond the rudimentary that so many seem to have trouble overcoming. Hardwork and dedication to get there I would think, yes?

 

[Tucson T4R]

Thanks

I don't have enough experience yet to provide much input to this discussion but I am thoroughly enjoying this great thread. :wings:

I have learned a lot of the basics over the last year and I hope to get in a lot of practice this year.

Reading the amazing depth and diverse opinions from the outstanding photographers in our community is a wonderful resource for a newbie like me.

Kudos to you all and thanks for sharing with others who are enjoying the process of honing our skills and photographic vision.

 

[photoman]

I guess I see a difference between critique and evaluation. If I go to a gallery I'm not there to critique, I evaluate, it's more of an internalized reflection of how the work makes me feel. Where I see a critique as something where both the artist and reviewer work toward a goal of improved expression. This is where I would personally like a little context in order to provide the best possible feedback.

Only emphasizing the process.

The first step of a quality critique must be done before any context is given. Once there is context your view of the image has already been scewed in a direction. You are then comparing the information provided by the photographer vs the image vs your own impressions of both. Your ability to view the image in complete objectivity is lost, therefore limiting the amount of feedback you are able to provide. You either agree or disagree that the photographer achieved what he was after. You miss an entire different side of image, the organic internalization of the image, and the ability to see the image differently than the artist. It is the ability to see the image before context is provided that will allow you and the photographer to have the most in depth discussion of the image.

 

[Lost Canadian]

Fair enough, I agree with that. So long as context is given at some point in order to make a final judgement as to whether the photographer was sucessful or not. I guess you said that in you're first post though, my bad.

Anyway, so how about we move this along. Anyone have thoughts on certain qualities you think help make a great image. Let's talk light. What do you guys and gals think great light looks like? I've recently been wondering if there is such a thing as bad light. I'm beginning to think that the quality of light either serves your image or does not? But bad light,...I'm not entirely sure I'm sold on such a thing anymore. You?

 

[photoman]

Shifting gears here for a moment.

I think some photos need to be added to help visualize some of the topics and ideas being shared. If someone that posts an image is open to it being critiqued by others a note should be added. It will be up to that poster to provide or withold as much or as little context as possible. This is not to take away from the photo critique thread already on the forum but rather to enhance the discussions in this thread.

All clear?


Forsight= having a vision of what you are going to capture. We have talked briefly about going out with a plan or a vision you looking to capture, this is a good example of that.

Back in 2007 I made my first trip to shoot Upper Antelope Canyon in Page AZ. I had grown up seeing many amazing photos from here and always wanted to go see it. I researched the canyons and looked at hundreds of photos taken by people from all over the world. I also researched the way I would be able to spend the most amount of time in the canyon and the best time of year and best time of day. Upper Antelope Canyon is famous for its light tubes which I had planned to capture but during my research I saw a shot of sand falling down the sandstone wall. While the shot was not very good I loved the idea and began to envision a shot similar to it.
I booked a 3 hour photo tour with Overland Canyon Tours for 11am to 3pm in July of 2007. This was optimum light tube time and hot enough to keep many tourists at bay. The tour was limited to 6 photographers which was a perfect size. As we moved through the canyon shooting the colors, textures, and light tubes I was always looking for a location to get the shot I had pictured in my head. Once the location was found I began to set up for the shot, composing the image, measuring light, and determining how much sand was going to be needed. Of course the other 5 photographers and even the guide asked what the heck was I going to take a picture of. I told them to just watch.

The Result:

While there are some technical details that could be better this image is still one of my favorites mostly in part because I was able to capture what I had envisioned. I booked another tour this past October and hoped to improve on this image but the canyon was insanely busy. None of my envisioned shots came to be, half weren't even able to be attempted due to crowd, so I had to make adjustments and shoot the canyon in a different style. Another topic.

**Feel Free to Critique this image** More information will be provided as asked.

 

[Michael Slade]

Heading out to go photograph...taking the G11 and the 8x20. I'll be camping overnight near Strawberry Reservoir. Don't feel like I'm ignoring this thread...I still have lots I want to say. (like you guys were worried about *that* right?)

EDIT: I was going to add, that I am going shooting w/out any expectations. I might take the 8x20 out...I might not. I have a shot that I *do* have precicely envisioned up near there that I will be scouting. I need a fresh blanket of snow and about 4 snowmobilers to make it just right. Unfortunately it hasn't snowed in a few weeks.