Let's talk making great images.

Overland Hadley

on a journey
Ok, so back on track. Let's say you've taken your 10,000+ shots, great. Now go out and limit yourself to only 5. Most of us have trouble here because most of us don't really think about what we're doing when we shoot, actually most of us simply point and shoot and hope to find something that works. If you can only take 5 shots though you'll want to make them count. Slow down. Look through your viewfinder and really examine every element in the frame from corner to corner. Do you like what you see? Did you notice that stray tree branch in the corner of the frame? How's the light, is it working? Maybe you should come back to this spot later when the light is better. Whatever, slow down. Make sure every element in the frame adds to the image, if it doesn't, move, reframe, and analyze again.

A really good point here. I have two things to add.

Approach a subject like you have one piece of film left. Spend the time to really look things over and have a good think. Then if you need to go ahead and try different angles, but if you have spent the time as though you only had one go at it, that will have cleared things up a bit.

Use a big, heavy, awkward tripod. That will slow things down.
 

Overland Hadley

on a journey
I don't know, some of Ansel Adams better shots were taken midday. Of course aided by the use of heavy red filtering to make the northern sky black as black. Not to mention his time in the dark room...

I have made a couple of "big landscape" images at noon. It always feels very odd to hear the shutter trip so fast.

(For those of you who do not know, a view camera uses a shutter that makes a distinctive buzzing sound while the shutter is open. For a short exposure there is naturally very little buzzing, just the clip/clop of the shutter opening and then closing.)
 

taco2go

Explorer
I thought perhaps you're right, so how about the work by Lucien Hervé as a better example,? Same idea as before.

herve354x569.gif

Thanks for a stimulating discussion gentlemen. That made me go out and find some 'harsh light' pictures today; Sans Mr Luciens atmospheric grain :Wow1:, but I thought I'd give it a shot..
The sun is very bright, but hangs low through the MI winters. Makes for some long shadows.

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photoman

Explorer
It seems there is an misconception of bad light going on here. Bad light is not simply midday light or high contrast light.

Can you shoot high contrast shots in midday light? Yes.
If you move into a narrow canyon or into an alley you are no longer in bad light. The lighting conditions have changed dramatically.
If there is cloud cover at midday the lighting is completely different than direct sunlight at midday.
Long shadows are an indication of the sun being low on the horizon which for most landscape shooting is the prime light- not bad light.

Don McCullin has the quote: "There is no such thing as bad light, only misunderstood light."

While the quote is great to debate, to think about internally, and is one that can be argued for or against. I am going to agree to a certain level with the quote but put the qualifier that it depends on what you are attempting to capture.
 

Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
It seems there is an misconception of bad light going on here. Bad light is not simply midday light or high contrast light.
Honestly, I don't see any misconceptions here. This, the conversation that is, is simply an open dialouge about the philosophical differences and approach to light, what it is, and how we define it. I don't see any absolutes or matter of facts being thrown about with regards to this dicussion. Harsh light is simple being used as an example piece in the talk, because, quite frankly, it more than other types of light is often demonized as being "bad." The simplistic idea and/or contention often made by many photographers that there is such a thing as bad light is what I question. I agree, as you have pointed to, that it depends largely on your goals. Someone looking for a beautiful sunset may very well be disappointed by a cloudless sky, or an overcast evening, and they may say "the light isn't working" or it's "bad." While somone shooting macro may look at that overcast sky and rejoice. So light in my opinion, is a relative element, as it's desired qualitites are directly related to the desire or goals of the photographer.

Which brings me to this point or idea. If someone says put your camera away midday, which let's be honest, is often preached to young photographers because it's commonly seen as "bad" light, the question becomes why. That advice is, in my opinion, simply a projection of anothers photographic goals and is ill conceived advice unless it looks at or takes into consideration the goals of the young photographer seeking understanding.

Now as if it hasn't been blindingly obvious, I have a bit of a bone to pick with the photographic establishment on a whole which is why I have been asking why throughout many of my posts here. In the teaching of photography many concepts are taught in terms of absolutes, i.e., rules. For instance, how many times have you seen a critque where the reviewer says "that looks unnatural." That statement in of itself suggests that there is an imposed rule that certain images should look natural. To that idea I say why, black and white ain't exactly natural, unless of course you're a dog, and most would accept it. Is an image provocative, does it have intrigue, does it pull you in? Does it have 'impact'!?! Regardless of ones personal taste, that last point is the only consideration worth worrying about. The stifling nature, and elitist attitudes often seen and propagated by the photographic institution, as it relates to understanding, teaching, and acceptance, works as a disservce to all those looking to express and find their own voice/vision.

So to bring this back around, the conversation I would like to see, not that it needs to be though, is that of impact. How do photographic elements such as light, texture, focus, angle or view, framing, color,...subject?, affect an image, and how can we use these elements in our own work to better express our goals.

A question I've been wondering of late is can one element, on it's own, hold an image? Lets take light for instance. Below are two very simple photo's I've taken over the last couple days to try and answer this question for myself. Clearly the defining language of these photos is light and not much more. Light 'is' the subject, the focus, and the only real defining factor as it relates to each images impact. There is not much more holding these shots together so the question is do they work on some level? Would it be better if there were more context seen in these or does a lack of context add intrigue? I include these images as simple talking points, and not necessarily to provoke critique. What I want to know is what's happening in 'your' head when you see them?
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SeaRubi

Explorer
sunset1.jpg


The feeling is what I want to capture, not the image. With that mindset, I begin looking for images around me that might capture my mood, and I start to play with technique and gear to create something representative. If I'm not really feeling anything when I hit the shutter, it's painfully obvious in the result.

The above was shot with a Palm Treo and is untouched. I often use it to take advantage of the relatively slow shutter with bright sources. I like the low-fi feel of the result, and the exaggerated blasts of light that seem larger than life. The sun in this image is how it felt to me - huge, looming across the water, bathing people on the beach - reaching for me with it's last magnificent gasps before slipping into a watery abyss.
 

Michael Slade

Untitled
Light 'is' the subject, the focus, and the only real defining factor as it relates to each images impact.

Light is a particle and a wave, but is unseen to our un-aided human eyes. Therefore light cannot be the subject of a photograph because you cannot see it. Light CAN however change everything that appears in a photograph. Light can do amazing things when it passes through or bounces off objects. But it can't be the subject of a photograph.

Just a matter of definition is all.

I think that there are two types of light. The kind you want, and the kind you don't want. It is up to the photographer to determine if it's the right kind of light or not.

James Blair, a NG photographer and a friend of mine said, "There is no such thing as bad light...only where you put yourself in it". Basically what he is saying is that you can do just about anything with just about any type of light that you may be confronted with.

For me, I have certain times of day I like to go shoot in because the quality of light is predictable. I also like to shoot during the winter b/c the sun is low in the sky and I get a good quality light for longer periods during the day. I also love shooting in the northern latitudes b/c of the same reason.

I definitely think that light interacting with the subject can hold an image when the elements themselves are rather simple or plain. The quality of light and what it is doing is definitely enough to rescue a really crappy image. I tell my students all the time that in the right light even a pile of dog-poop can look beautiful.
 

cnynrat

Expedition Leader
Very interesting discussion. On a photographic level, I'm think I am at a level where I can mainly listen and learn.

I think the physicist would say that light is in fact all we see. Light interacts with the objects around us, and through that process the characteristics of light may change. In the end, what our eyes see is light as it is reflected off the objects around us. The camera also only 'sees' light, albeit in some ways that differ from the way our eyes see light.

As far as the good light/bad light question posed by Trevor, I think he is right that it depends on the objective of the photographer. Light can not be inherently good or bad. In some cases it may suit the objectives of the photographer, or in other cases it may not. The quality of light exists separate from the objectives of the photographer. It is the relationship of the quality of the light to the objectives of the photographer that makes light good or bad, not the inherent characteristics of the light.
 

Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
Michael Slade said:
Therefore light cannot be the subject of a photograph because you cannot see it.

And to think, here I thought all those little cones and rods in our eyes were designed for just such a thing. ;) JK. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the perception of light/color then, would I be correct in saying so? My point and question of course is simply can a quality of perceived light, be it intesity, color, direction etc, stand on it's own as seemingly the only distinguishable element in a photograph? Michael, I know you already answered this, kinda, so I guess the next logical question would be if it can, what makes certain types of light more or less suitable for a situational goal? I'd love to hear others thoughts on this. I've already spent too much time yaking. Why would someone want dark shadows or not as the case may be? What is it about certain light that trasforms the poo into a thing of a thing of beauty?
 

Michael Slade

Untitled
Michael, I know you already answered this, kinda, so I guess the next logical question would be if it can, what makes certain types of light more or less suitable for a situational goal?

You have just hit on why photography is an art and not a science. You cannot bottle it. You cannot sell it. You cannot put it into an equation or a formula. You just have to recognize when you feel it and then do whatever you have in your bag of tricks to capture it. You learn through trial and error (mostly through the errors honestly...), what works and what doesn't.

What is it about certain light that trasforms the poo into a thing of a thing of beauty?

I don't know...but I have spent a career trying to figure that out. When I get that solved I'll be sure and let everyone know. I just know it when I see it.
 
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SeaRubi

Explorer
"Why would someone want dark shadows or not as the case may be? What is it about certain light that trasforms the poo into a thing of a thing of beauty?"

You are talking about Minor White and probably not realising it ...
 

taco2go

Explorer
Creative use of light: it seems to me that photojournalists, and travel photographers, who often have to think and act quickly, make striking images using the extremes, even clipped highlights and shadows. The ability to know what the camera will "see" with regards to light, and compose using that as part of the image's appeal.

Which is what I have some difficulty doing at this point- being able to visualize what the camera is capable of seeing. Especially in a scene with varying grades of light- appreciating the camera's limited dynamic range, but using that as another tool vs a limitation.

Michael Freeman does this quite a bit and I find myself returning to his articles- as a teacher, he seems to really stress visualizing the image and working backwords from there to the actual mechanics of your camera. I also like that he completely leaves out post processing in his discussions.

Some examples In the link below, I especially like his image of the Shinto priest walking over the bridge- an example of knowingly using the camera's limited range (with regards to light) to an advantage.
http://thefreemanview.com/techniques/perfect-exposure-one-point-of-view/#more-127
 

daverami

Explorer
You have just hit on why photography is an art and not a science. You cannot bottle it. You cannot sell it. You cannot put it into an equation or a formula. You just have to recognize when you feel it and then do whatever you have in your bag of tricks to capture it. You learn through trial and error (mostly through the errors honestly...), what works and what doesn't/QUOTE]

I really like your thoughts here.
 

Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
You have just hit on why photography is an art and not a science. You cannot bottle it. You cannot sell it. You cannot put it into an equation or a formula.

There it is. I was hoping you'd say something like that, and considering you're a teacher of the photographic arts I'm so glad you did. Me saying it just doesn't hold nearly as much weight as you. It also reminds me of a Richard Rorty quote, he said
The artist's awareness that he is making rather than finding puts him one up on the scientist.

This will be my final argument on this point, I promise. LOL. I suppose when it comes to thoughts on photography, I simply wish the larger establishment of photographers would embrace more of a Jackson Pollack approach, with a greater rejection to the use of theory and rules. My growing feeling as I continue to learn is that by suggesting there are rules that need to be first learned implies that photography is science not art, assumed to be analytical and thus reductive. If we teach and use a science minded approach to photography we become stagnant as creatives because we will always be trying to force our creativity to conform to theory. If this is the case, then we as the artist can never grow or create anything original, and expressing ourselves honestly through the medium becomes next to impossible. I think if we turned the learning pyramid on its head we would reduce the incidence of creative suffocation. Getting those looking to learn to ask and answer why of themselves before implying how, may, in my mind anyway, give them more creative freedom.
 

Lost Canadian

Expedition Leader
Creative use of light: it seems to me that photojournalists, and travel photographers, who often have to think and act quickly, make striking images using the extremes, even clipped highlights and shadows. The ability to know what the camera will "see" with regards to light, and compose using that as part of the image's appeal.

Which is what I have some difficulty doing at this point- being able to visualize what the camera is capable of seeing. Especially in a scene with varying grades of light- appreciating the camera's limited dynamic range, but using that as another tool vs a limitation.

Michael Freeman does this quite a bit and I find myself returning to his articles- as a teacher, he seems to really stress visualizing the image and working backwords from there to the actual mechanics of your camera. I also like that he completely leaves out post processing in his discussions.

Some examples In the link below, I especially like his image of the Shinto priest walking over the bridge- an example of knowingly using the camera's limited range (with regards to light) to an advantage.
http://thefreemanview.com/techniques/perfect-exposure-one-point-of-view/#more-127

Great points Joash, and useful link. Thanks.
 

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