Lite weight campers & RVs. Consumers/customers need to push manufacturers....

[boxcar1]

Am Oliver removed from it's frame and installed on a flat bed.
Not a bad Idea , unless you have a phobia of dentist offices.

The new Oliver 18'

•Self-Igniting LP Furnace with Central Heating ( Burns a tone of DC )
•Coleman Mach 8 Polar Cub (9,200 BTU) A/C Unit & Wall Mount Thermostat ( see above )
•MaxxFan Deluxe Remote Control RV Ventilator System ( again see above )
•Larger Galley Drawers for more storage with Dovetail Joints ( hard wood drawers are fairly heavy )
•Furrion Stereo Entertainment Sytstem ( I like a nice stereo )
•Aluminum double entry steps ( finally some weight savings )
•Fiber-Granite countertops and accents option ( wonder what that weighs? )
•New easier to use outside faucet ( How do you make an easier to use faucet ? It's a faucet )
•Relocating the rear jack switches from the rear to the front for easier leveling of the trailer from one spot
•Nitrogen filled Michelin LTX® M/S2 Tires
•Added an additional 110v outlet outside of the bathroom for using electric heaters or hair dryers in front of the mirrored bathroom door ( I suppose having an outlet for your hair dryer or other appliances in the living aria is something new)
•New coiled spring wire for breakaway switch for easy storage when not in use
•New safety chain holders to stow chains off the ground
•Larger font on switch labels for easier reading
•New black cover on front jack that resists yellowing over time
•New Delta swivel bar sink faucet for easier use and to accommodate larger pans
•Relocated winterizing inlet to the rear for easier access
•Replaced toilet with new Dometic 311 toilet (low profile with porcelain bowl)
•and more...


I hate to sound so negative but this is a good example of what I stated above.
All raped in a nice white fiberglass bubble.
I have owned one ( actually it was a scamp ). Had a huge condensation problem and the door seals failed often . But it will still be here after the apocalypse, In all it's clinical glory.

I did think of converting a tow behind into a flat bed . Just didn't pencil out for me. I like the convenience of a non dedicated truck . And am not super fond of flat beds.
Good idea though.

I noticed that rust was mentioned.... A properly treated steel frame wont rust.
I prefer cold galvanizing, then a good etching primer.
Once the interior panels are mounted ,( before insulation ) shoot the entire unit with a good coat of sealer . I will use polyurethane clear.
Add the ridged insulation , then tape all the joints. Now you have an encapsulated frame. No rust , no rot , no moisture intrusion.
One could also coat the chassis with PAR 15.
I thought about that initially but decided against it as it is a very messy process.

 

[OCD Overland]

Whether you like the look of a fiberglass interior or not is entirely subjective. I think it looks great, myself. And it's certainly easy to keep clean.

Better fiberglass shells don't have a condensation problem. A thin, single walled unit like a Scamp with little or no insulation will sweat, but take a look at the Oliver's construction...



That's only the outside shell. There's an air space and an interior shell as well. They're probably the best insulated units I've seen.

As for the stuff they put in it, everyone has their own preferences. My point is that for the same money and weight as IdaSHO is saying he could make a bare bones flatbed camper for, you could buy one of these and if you don't like the heater, AC or shower, then rip it out or don't use it.

I'm all for doing your own thing, but I think it all has to be weighed in the overall context. I don't know if I'd actually do what I'm talking about, but it's a worthwhile thought exercise against which to test your own ideas. And I use the Oliver as an example only because I've been researching travel trailers and I'm familiar with them. There may be better examples.

 

[IdaSHO]

The empty shell option is certainly a way to go about it, if you can find a MFG to do so.

I feel like LOTS of people would rather go that way, and simply do what they want with the interior, as the budget and creativity allows.

I know with regards to how I do things, an empty shell would be EXTREMELY affordable compared to a completed finished unit.
The devil really is in the details, and finishing out an interior takes 2x the labor, and at least 4x the cost of materials (and fixtures), as the shell shell alone.

So for instance as simplified example....

So say a shell cost $5,000 the finished camper would be in the $20,000 to $25,000 range.

Again, super simplified with fictitious numbers, just to make a point about shell vs finished out.

Without saying too much...

I currently have MFG and dealer license paperwork on my desk.

I'm taking the plunge.

 

[OCD Overland]

I think that's awesome that you're taking the plunge and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[IdaSHO]

Thank you

I appreciate it.

 

[boxcar1]

Whether you like the look of a fiberglass interior or not is entirely subjective. I think it looks great, myself. And it's certainly easy to keep clean.

Better fiberglass shells don't have a condensation problem. A thin, single walled unit like a Scamp with little or no insulation will sweat, but take a look at the Oliver's construction...

View attachment 326041

That's only the outside shell. There's an air space and an interior shell as well. They're probably the best insulated units I've seen.

As for the stuff they put in it, everyone has their own preferences. My point is that for the same money and weight as IdaSHO is saying he could make a bare bones flatbed camper for, you could buy one of these and if you don't like the heater, AC or shower, then rip it out or don't use it.

I'm all for doing your own thing, but I think it all has to be weighed in the overall context. I don't know if I'd actually do what I'm talking about, but it's a worthwhile thought exercise against which to test your own ideas. And I use the Oliver as an example only because I've been researching travel trailers and I'm familiar with them. There may be better examples.

I agree with you that there are varying tastes when it comes to what the optimum interior is. Clinical just isn't my thing.
Unfortunately all glass units condense water at the same rate . Insulation has nothing to do with the problem.
This is caused by the smooth glassy non absorbent gel coat surface of fiberglass.
That's why it works so well in boat construction.
Ventilation is the only answer to condensation. That or some form of dehumidifier.
Some do a better job than others at combating this problem.
But close it up and it becomes a plastic container, and just like Tupperware it will not breath.
I don't have a problem with building a Molded Glass RV. In fact I think it may hold all the answers to the factory built RV problems, if done properly.
Problem is that the industry has taken the most cost effective construction technique and made it the most expensive alternative.
Either by adding a bunch of bells and whistles that are not needed or by just flat inflating the price to an unrealistic level.
The material and labor cost of either molding fiberglass or manufacturing composite structural panels is minimal at best when compared to conventional construction.
That is, when it is used in a multi unit manufacturing process....
When used in a prototypical ( one off build ) , it's a very expensive alternative.
I do like the idea of building and marketing a blank slate empty shell unit ready to be fitted out by prospective clients.
I think it will be a small niche business as most RV-er's seem to be more into pushing buttons than running a table saw..... But hay , it's the world we live in and created.
Not to mention the problems with getting such a rig through the licensing and insuring process once fitted out.
Good luck man I hope it all works out well for you. We need more people who are willing to dream and take a risk in this world.....

 

[Jeep]

The empty shell option is certainly a way to go about it, if you can find a MFG to do so.

I feel like LOTS of people would rather go that way, and simply do what they want with the interior, as the budget and creativity allows.

I know with regards to how I do things, an empty shell would be EXTREMELY affordable compared to a completed finished unit.
The devil really is in the details, and finishing out an interior takes 2x the labor, and at least 4x the cost of materials (and fixtures), as the shell shell alone.

So for instance as simplified example....

So say a shell cost $5,000 the finished camper would be in the $20,000 to $25,000 range.

Again, super simplified with fictitious numbers, just to make a point about shell vs finished out.

Without saying too much...

I currently have MFG and dealer license paperwork on my desk.

I'm taking the plunge.

I believe you will have success, I think you did a great build, I really like it because it is different than what I work with and it is done correctly. If you stick to the construction philosophy and price your units so you turn a profit you won't need any luck, and it's always best to try and keep luck out of a business plan, but a little of that definitely doesn't hurt either!! You have to make a living AND turn a profit to survive, expenses add up, and little things like shop supplies, time spent cleaning up, paperwork, management....it all has a value.

You are absolutely correct about shell cost vs finished cost, I can pound a shell out extremely quick, all of the labor is in the finishing and it plus componentry add up fast!

All the best!
Mark.

 

[STREGA]

I believe you will have success, I think you did a great build, I really like it because it is different than what I work with and it is done correctly. If you stick to the construction philosophy and price your units so you turn a profit you won't need any luck, and it's always best to try and keep luck out of a business plan, but a little of that definitely doesn't hurt either!! You have to make a living AND turn a profit to survive, expenses add up, and little things like shop supplies, time spent cleaning up, paperwork, management....it all has a value.

You are absolutely correct about shell cost vs finished cost, I can pound a shell out extremely quick, all of the labor is in the finishing and it plus componentry add up fast!

All the best!
Mark.

I agree with this post and with other points made in this tread.

I believe to many camper/trailers have become over complicated, to heavy and way to expensive for what is really needed. Just as I don't need a 3500 square foot house I also don't need a $35K camping rig to enjoy the great outdoors.

Back in 1961 when I was about 5 years old, my parents bought a 8' cab over camper that ultimately became one of the best investment they made, the family memories it helped create are to this day priceless. The funny thing is, compared to today campers and trailers it was about as basic as it gets. It did have a ice box, a dinette/table that made into a bed and seated 4 people snugly. A propane stove and a propane light which used a mantle like a Coleman lantern, it also double as the heater which it did a decent job of. It also had a small sink with a manual hand pump and some storage cabinets and that was about it.

Simple and basic needs were covered, it kept us warm and dry and after all the myriad of different camping set- ups I have had over the years this all I want now. Going full circle I guess, my dad was brilliant!

 

[Freebird]

I certainly think insulation has a LOT to do with condensation......
COLD surface in moist air produces condensation.
If cold doesn't reach the surface exposed to moisture, there is no condensation.
Off hand, I can't think of a material that is the exception to this.

Educate me please.

 

[IdaSHO]

Condensation is little more than air becoming over-saturated with humidity.

You see it more in cold weather because cold air can "hold" less moisture before the moisture must condense.

So yes, to a point insulation does help, but it isnt fixing the humidity problem that is still there (although invisible) in warmer temps.



Within a confined space like a camper, the #1 contributor to the humidity that causes condensation is the occupants, doing nothing more than breathing.

Ventilation is the single best method of reducing humidity. Second only to a dehumidifier.

 

[Freebird]

^^^^ nothing to disagree with there.
The word was condensation, to me implying liquid moisture forming on a surface. If it is not on a surface it is water vapor, which when cooled becomes visible water vapor.
For condensation to form on a surface it has to be cooler than the dew point of the moisture in the air. If that cold is not transmitted to (reaching) that surface, stopped by whatever form of insulation is stopping it, liquid moisture will not form on that surface. What the surface is made of is irrelevant.

 

[OCD Overland]

Also the insulated space has to be free of moisture itself, or the condensation will just occur within the insulated cavity. That's what causes mold and rot within walls and it's why insulated glass is filled with a moisture free gas or is under vacuum.

Condensation absolutely occurs on wood walls, but since wood is a very effective sponge, the moisture is absorbed and you don't see it. It manifests itself instead in expansion and contraction, rusting of fasteners, sometimes mold, etc.

Back to the Oliver, they deal with moisture not only through insulation, but since they use a double hull, the dew point is almost guaranteed to occur between the hulls. And they add (I believe R13) adhesive insulation to each surface which increases the likelihood that the dew point will occur within the material, where there is of course no air or moisture. Then they circulate air between the hulls and finally provide drainage weeps for any moisture that does form. And since there's nothing between to rot, rust or feed mold, it shoudnt ever cause problems even if it does. Inside, there's enough openings, fans, etc. to change the air in probably less than a minute, so the moisture from showers, cooking, etc. can be dealt with quickly. Worst case problem, I'd think, would be condensation and corrosion forming on cold electrical connections.

 

[boxcar1]

You make a compelling argument . However . Science and experience dictates that you are sadly wrong.( no offence )
Manufacturers make very interesting claims . All designed to sell there products.
In order for the the moisture in the cab air to migrate through the fiberglass walls of the interior to void between the inner walls of the unit in question . there would have to be an air exchange between the two.
Either by mechanical or passive means.
I have not seen evidence of such a system in the design of any coach that is glass molded. For good reason.
Mold.
Mold can and will grow on any surface that is exposed to the air and is not treated so as to prevent such an occurrence. ( It can draw nutrients from the atmosphere )



I have a 36' sport fishing boat that I keep in the harbor year round , a double hull fiberglass boat.. Trust me , Mold will grow on window glass if not kept in check.
It defiantly will grow between the hulls of a double hull if air / moisture is allowed to infiltrate the layers.

The weep holes in the design of the Oliver are there because they have a condensation problem, and are trying to combat it by adding drains for the ample amount of water generated between the two layers of the design to escape. Problem is that warm moist air rises . And is difficult to remove without forced ventilation.
A vicious circle.

Wood , by nature, is porous - yes I agree.
Properly sealed , as most high gloss furniture is , it is not.
Some woods are better at fighting molds ,mildews and dry rot than others. Teak , mahogany etc. Do not suffer moisture damage as do say fir , hemlock or pine.
However even these materials can be made impregnable with proper sealing.
Unfortunately the latter seem to be the staples of the industry due to there cost and weight and are generally left in there raw form ( un treated ) when enclosed inside the walls.

This is why I opted to use ample amounts of mahogany and teak over an encapsulated steel frame for my prototype build.
I did use fir for the cabinet framing . Fir sealed with polyurethane.
All stainless fasteners solves another of your concerns.

The trick is in keeping the moisture out of the inner walls of the unit. Not in allowing it to enter and then trying to combat it.
I'm attempting to do that very thing as we speak.
Ridged inner chassis ( no flex ) to prevent leaks from occurring through the window and vent seals.
As seamless an exterior as is possible in such a design.
Ample use of vapor barrier's between the skin and structure.
This will hopefully do the trick . I'm tired of buying RV's.....
We shall see if my plan pans out. Only time will tell.

 

[OCD Overland]

Please stop invoking science until you understand it.

You're confusing condensation with air moisture content. They are two separate things. Water vapor will not condense unless it reaches its dew point. If the inner surface of the fiberglass is below the dew point temperature, condensation will occur; if it is not, then no condensation. The air outside the shell or between two shells also has moisture content, and that water vapor will obviously also condense if it reaches it's dew point. This is independent of the moisture content inside the camper. No one is talking about moisture migrating through fiberglass.

Mold and mildew can only grow on organic matter. They do not "draw nutrients from the atmosphere". That's lichen. If you have either growing on glass, it is actually feeding on some other organic matter embedded in or attached to the glass.

If you think that mahogany veneered plywood has the same properties as solid mahogany, then you are mistaken. If you did not seal the back and edges prior to installation, then no surface treatment will have much effect on it's ability to absorb moisture. When it's raining, the moisture content of the air outside will far exceed anything you'll produce inside, apart from maybe taking a shower, and the plywood will absorb that moisture. And if you do seal the surface, then guess what - the wood isn't going to absorb the condensation and it will collect on the surface just as if it were fiberglass. It's not magic.

There's nothing wrong with the way you are building - it's a very practical method particularly for the do it yourselfer. And I doubt you'll have problems if you do it right. But don't go around bashing other methods just because you chose something else, especially when it's clear that you don't really know what you're talking about. You're building a standard, heavy-assed steel and wood camper and pretending it's magic. Maintain at least an ounce of humility, and just remember that a fiberglass shell will still be perfectly serviceable 50 years from now; your camper, regardless how well built, will likely be in a landfill long before that.

 

[OCD Overland]

I made myself curious about the R-value of the insulation Oliver uses, so I looked it up. It's actually pretty cool stuff. The R-value is much higher than I'd thought. Here's a pdf cut sheet on it - it may be useful to any of you who are building their own. Very thin and easy to work with it seems...

http://www.prodexcr.com/descargas/23 AD5- AD10 INGLES.pdf