Locker vs Open

[jfarsang]

Personally,

I prefer 1, 3 ,2, 4.

Ditto.

Tires and rear locker are a great combination.

Winch and front lockers come after the rear locker on my vehicles.

 

[Scott Brady]

When venturing into the unknown (i.e., not a day trip), always opt for a winch before a locker

That one comes right from the school of hard knocks. :REOutCampFire03:

 

[jh504]

When venturing into the unknown (i.e., not a day trip), always opt for a winch before a locker

That one comes right from the school of hard knocks. :REOutCampFire03:

That I can difinitely agree with. I will take a winch over lockers any day of the week. My 8,000 is sitting in my storage room waiting for me to figure out how Im gonna mount it.

 

[IH8RDS]

Here is the order I went with my present vehicle.

Off road tires (1 year mark)
Rear Powertrax No-Slip (4 year mark)
Winch (5 year mark)
Front and rear ARB lockers (7 year mark)

 

[teotwaki]

Mr Scott, sir,
I'd like to respectfully amend your blanket statement as follows:

0. Experience driving your unmodified stock rig to learn it limits and capabilities. Too many people gear up right away with what is currently fashionable not knowing if the new gear will help or hinder. Get to know thy rig intimately. THEN and only THEN decide if you need to gear up beyond stock and know which vehicle parameters you wish to expand before spending any money on the gear de jour.

1. Tires (LT tires of appropriate diameter, tread design and construction.)

1.1 On board air so you can air up at the end of the trail or as needed then lots of behind the wheel time learning what the tyres do to your vehicle's limits at different pressures in different conditions on different materials. Sometimes airing down is better than having a locker and road inflated tyres.


2. Winch

2.1 go out and purposefully get stuck in different situations just to learn recovery skills. Learn what you winch can and can not do for you. Sometimes it is best to winch yourself over something you might be able to get through with lockers just to prevent a high probability of vehicle damage or undue damage to a delicate ecosystem.

3. Rear Locking Differential (Driver Selectable)

3.1 Go out and spend a lot of time driving those areas where you just could barely make it with an open diff and those that you could not quite make it. Try each open diffed then locked to learn what the locker can do for you and how an open diff can sometimes chew up the trail.

Beware a locked diff can become a crutch that masks poor driving skills. gain the skills before using a locker.

4. Front Locking Differential (Driver Selectable)

4.1 Go out and spend a lot of time driving those areas where you just could barely make it with an open front diff and those that you could not quite make it. Try each open diffed then locked to learn what the locker can do for you. And never forget a locked diff can be VERY hard on steering components, especially if you like to work the front wheels in the soft stuff.

And never forget, gear does not make up for lack of driving experience. Know thy rig and how to guide it through obstacles as damage free as possible. Any poser can spend lots of money for flashy gear and hang it on their mall terrain vehicle.

Very nice, logical and plain-speak write up! I have on-board air done and been driving the 4Runner for a while with suspension lift and armor. Next on the path will be: rear locker, winch (requires a new bumper too), and lastly front locker.

 

[HINO SG]

I agree - it took me a while to guess that CDL stood for Center Diff Lock, and TC was Traction Control. Sometimes it is like solving a Sudoku puzzle trying to figure them out.

And to me, P38 is an airplane, not a Range Rover.

TTFN,

James

That's what I was thinking. I need a Commercial Drivers Licence to drive a Defender? I had no idea.:Wow1:

 

[nwoods]

When venturing into the unknown (i.e., not a day trip), always opt for a winch before a locker

Hmm. Better tell those guys at NASA what they are doing wrong. Locked, no winch:

16mm film frame of John Young giving the LRV a speed workout in what came to be known as the "Grand Prix" run

 

[nwoods]

traction control blows most of the time, but can help in some situations.

Up to, but not including the LR3/RRS/FFRR MkIII platforms. The current generation traction control in Land Rovers is truly phenominal.

 

[nwoods]

Added one popular brand:

Another way to look at this is how the engineers specify the functional requirements for driver selectable lockers

Toyota E-Locker: Rear first, then Front. Front cannot be operated independently of the rear.

Mercedes G-Wagen: Center, then Rear, then Front. Front cannot be operated independently of the rear.

Jeep Rubicon: Center (low range), then Rear, then Front. Front cannot be operated independantly of the rear.

ARB Wiring Harness: Rear first, then Front. Front cannot be operated independently of the rear.

In all cases above, rear can be operated independent of the front, not vice-versa (without modification)

 

[superpowerdave]

Interesting chunk of thoughts in this thread.

I liked the small list of steps to take when building a rig, although it would seem to me that the crowd on this forum would benefit more from a winch before lockers.

I guess my thoughts on that are that it sounds as though a lot of people here travel solo (hence the number of Spot purchasers) or with just one more rig. Without a big group to help when things get tough some re-thinking needs to happen on a build.

It has always seemed to me that while lockers get you farther down the trail, they also get you farther from the road, and possibly farther from help. If you stick yourself in a spot you needed lockers to get to, then chances are good you're going to need someone equally equipped to come help get you out.

I opted for a winch first so that when I do become mired a self-recovery is possible. Knowing my tendencies, I knew if I went with lockers first I'd just give myself the opportunity to become stuck farther than if I'd been open/open, but without a good means to self-recover.

 

[Scott Brady]

Well said Dave.

Nice list of Rovers there!

 

[stu454]

Useful thread.

Maybe worthy of being a sticky??

 

[R_Lefebvre]

The best thing for the D2 is to install a CDL and disable the TC when off-road. D2 owners will tell you this is a night and day difference.

Well, my 2004 came with CDL. I have left the center open on some snotty muddy but otherwise non-technical roads, and the TC got along fine. But I can easily see how on technical climbs, the TC only is useless. Luckily for me I guess, the 04 has the best of both worlds. Lock the center diff, while still retaining TC to help torque distribution on each axle. The only time I ever saw a limitation, was on one steep climb which had a wash diagonally across it. The axles were all crossed up, I got the front axle through, but then the truck tipped alarmingly (for me) backwards. The TC only works when it senses a wheel spinning, and the more I spun the low rear wheel, the bigger the hole it dug in the dirt became, the truck tipped over more and more. I was basically done, but a spotter was able to pull the front bumper down just enough that I felt comfortable enough to give it enough gas, get the wheels spinning, TC kicked in and pulled the truck out.

That's the biggest disadvantage to TC and probably LSD's. In hind sight, I should have just hooked up the winch and not chanced it. Also mind, the situation wouldn't have been near as bad if I'd disconnected the front swaybar, but I hadn't expected something so hard as I'd been there before. The washout was new.

I ran stock axles with a Truetrac up front for some time. In the end, I broke 4 stock CV, 2 AEU2522 CV, and two inner shafts before going "HD".

With what tires? I'm running, and happy with my 245/75/16's, and I understand that with such a small tire, I'm at much less risk. The truck has already proved capable of 3-3.5 trails with this setup, and that's the most I want to do. I am only left wanting to armor the underside and add a snorkel so the whole experience is much more fun instead of hair raising.

Yes. Many people run TrueTracs in the F/R of the DII, as combined with the traction control the performance is quite impressive on dry, loose, rocky surfaces and on most hill climbs. But this assumes that the traction control is working (which on my 2001 often did not) and that you are not on icy, snowy, cambered or muddy terrain.

This does not mean that a TrueTrac is not a great diff., just not better than a selectable locker.

The other thing I liked about them is they're supposed to help on-road steering stability?

But, if they are truly a liability, then I'll probably pass on the whole diff thing. The truck is already capable of what I want it to do. I only want to make is safer or more fun while doing it. The whole ARB/compressor/HDaxle/etc. thing just seems like "a bridge too far" for me. But, you never know what the future holds.

The whole point of this truck is to be able to go long distances on anything that could be considered a road or trail to get to a destination. I don't intend on going on 4+ trails, as to me, it's just not reasonable to take a streetable vehicle on something like that.

cdl IS a night and day difference. traction control blows most of the time, but can help in some situations.

The TC on my truck, which does work in combination with the CDL, seems to work quite well. I only found that it requires some slight wheel slippage to activate, which is only occaisionally a detriment. I found that with the pizza cutters, I was able to get through some mud with minimal wheelspin that all the "locked and loaded" guys were tearing up anyway.

Almost all of the local trails I run have a granite base. Even on wet granite I havnt noticed much traction loss as long as a tire is touching. The surface of the rocks tends to be gritty and clean, not smooth, which is excellent for traction.

I agree. I found as long as all 4 tires were touch, I had no issues with traction at all.

Thanks. Center differential lock is one of those mysterious terms I have yet to fully understand nor am I sure I even want to. It doesn't impact leafer pilots. The transfer case is in two wheel drive or four wheel drive, high range or low range and that's complicated enough for me.

You know how you can't turn a 4x4 on pavement with locked front and rear diffs? The inside wheels travel through less distance than the outside wheels, thus you need functioning differentials. Well, the same is true in 4WD. The front axle travels further than the rear axle. Thus, you need a differential between the front and rear axles. When you go into 2wd, you're just dropping the connection to the front axle. In 4wd, both axles are locked together, and you can't turn (on pavement).

Since the newer trucks are in fact AWD, which means 4wd all the time, they need a differential in the transfer case. It is functionally identical to the differential in each axle, only it is *between* each axle. However, it's basically an open diff. It sucks for the same reasons that open diffs suck. Most modern LR's have a center diff lock. It's functionally the same as an locker. It locks out the center diff. Front and rear axles are locked together, so it is identical in operation to an old fashioned 4x4.

If anything like the Toyota's it will lock the F and R together making an even 50/50 power split.

Not technically correct. Locked diffs can supply up to 100% of the engine torque to any one wheel.

In fact, it is open diffs that supply EXACTLY 50% of engine torque to each wheel on an axle. The trouble with open diffs is that when one wheel is in the air, that torque may be exactly zero, which means that exactly zero torque can go to the wheel with traction, which means you can apply exactly zero engine torque or else the wheel spins.

haha. well when you put your truck into 4-wheel, the center diff is automatically locked. any part time four wheel drive is this way.

No, traditional 4wd transfer cases have no diff to lock, there is no diff in the center, at all. They are essentially like spools, only you can disconnect one of the axles completely.

I have to say I quite like ETC (electronic traction control) as its better than nothing in most situations I come across, the one exception being deep sand where it is a positive hindrance but I can't see why you would want to permanently disable it, switchable yes.

Not having driven in deep sand, I have to ask why? I assume it's like driving in snow. And then, I have to ask, have you sampled ALL types of TC before you make that statement?

Some TC's cut engine power when they sense wheelspin. These SUCK in snow, and I imagine in sand. However, the D2 TC does not cut engine power at all. It just brakes the spinning wheel. It provides HUGE traction on snow, and I'd think it would help in sand too?

 

[seashore]

Great thread folks-as always these start at a very different place sometimes....

My airplane (p-38 range rover) with traction control is great in snow, and other slick situations. Would not venture past modest trails in it.

My disco (series I, with center diff lock, and a clutch!) has a detroit in the rear, which was fitted many years into ownership, after the tires, winch, and air were added. It did make a noticeable difference on familiar terrain, and overall has improved the vehicle's performance. Once in a while I wish for the ARB, only so I can select the locker and truly appreciate the difference it makes. But the detroit has not posed any problems, yet. Cost is another factor, and for me, the detroit was a bargain, with HD axles, and has served well.

Different trucks for different purposes, both very capable...

Could not agree more with teriann that learning to drive your truck stock first is essential, as otherwise the mods are out of context and lead to sloppy driving skills.

 

[superpowerdave]

My airplane (p-38 range rover) with traction control is great in snow, and other slick situations. Would not venture past modest trails in it.

My wife drove her bone-stock P38 on a pretty challenging trail just outside of Mountain Home and folks were amazed. While you have your reasons for not taking her off-trail, I hope lack of confidence in performance isn't one of them

(By the way, at that time she still had the EAS!)