Lockers?

[Demon4x4]

Sorry, I meant my sway bars altogether (front & rear, down to the frame and axle brackets), on my Explorer. Not too concerned with insurance.

 

[jeff parker]

Sorry, I meant my sway bars altogether (front & rear, down to the frame and axle brackets), on my Explorer. Not too concerned with insurance.

Do you drive it on the street or is it a trailer queen? I witnessed an Explorer roll over 3 weeks ago on a dry highway at about 60mph. I can only imagine with a lift, giant tires and no swaybars how much more tippy it would be.

 

[Demon4x4]

It has recently become a trailer queen, but I drove it like that daily on the streets for 8+ years, until I got a super duty/tow rig.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[General Automag]

I am considering putting a locking differentials in my Jeep Liberty KJ and I am wondering if it is the right thing to do. There is nothing wrong with the Detroit TruTrack LSD that I have in the rear now and the front is a stock open diff. There is a lot of other things I want to do to the Jeep as well to make it more reliable when going off road as well as additional stuff I want to get to make it more useable while camping like gas cans, water cans, a set of MaxTrax, etc. etc.

I am wondering, those of you who have lockers, how often do you use them and in what type of terrain? I am not really a rock crawler though I do get into some fairly tough trails while out camping in my Jeep but I am more interested in overlanding than "wheelin" or mud bogs. Do you think my money is better spent elsewhere?

Considering how expensive it will be to put locking diffs in, I'm going to be doing a lot of research but I thought I'd post here as well to get the opinions of those who care to give theirs. What do you think?

Thanks for looking and hopefully responding to my post.

Fortunately, I had a lot of help and advice when I first started driving off road a lot. Everyone has their opinions, but like you, I listened to most of them and made up my own mind. Here goes in order of priority:

1) Spend your money on a winch first. This should include some gloves, a tree strap, a tow strap, a small piece of chain with some type of hook and or a D-link, and a snatch block. One winch we have has 150' of cable, so as long as there's something to attach the winch line to, we should be able to get ourselves "unstuck." Imagine yourself getting stuck while driving alone or even getting stuck with a vehicle behind you on a narrow trail unable to help you. A winch is paramount.
2) Appropriate tires. Mud terrains will work better off road than a street tread, so get yourself some tires that work for your needs most of the time. We have some BFG All-terrain (jokingly called "some terrain") our four wheel drive and they drive well on and off the pavement. They work well most of the time. You don't have to go big either. Remember that every inch increase in tire diameter only gets you a 1/2 inch in additional axle clearance.
3) Rear Locker. Start with the rear first. We have a limited-slip Auburn locker in the rear of our FJ40 and the front axle is an open differential, so in essence we have a 3-wheel drive vehicle. (You wouldn't believe where you can go in a stock FJ40!) Our full size 4WD full size truck has a factory LSD in the rear, so it too is a 3-wheel drive.
4) Front Locker. When you finally end up breaking things by driving your vehicle too roughly or trying it out in a rock garden where it probably shouldn't be, get yourself a front locking differential. When the front axle components finally give out in our FJ40, I will rebuild it and put a limited-slip differential in the front too.

Personally, I shied away from Detroit or Aussie lockers and have limited slip differentials in our vehicles, and so far, I've been very pleased. In the rear, they can act up in turns and especially on ice. If I lived where there were few paved roads, I may consider them. In the front, especially if you don't have power steering, a full locker will make it hard to turn, and having one installed will make you drive into places where you shouldn't which ends up breaking more of your drive train.

Air lockers are nice but expensive. Look at about US$1,000 or more per axle. Every shop I spoke with that has long term experience will tell you that they all will eventually leak. If you have the money to spend, they are nice, but I prefer to keep it simple. With a mechanical locking differential, you just don't have to think about it.

Lastly, you have to tell yourself what you want your vehicle for, where do you want to take it, and how much do you really want to spend upgrading and repairing it. There are daily drivers and camping rigs and there are rock crawlers and trailer rigs. The rock crawler and trailer rig owners will swear by lockers and welded diffs, but those machines aren't daily drives and can't be driven on the roads most of the time, much less on a 300-500 mile road trip. In the end, you just have to be smart in the way you drive. Take a look at these videos http://www.expeditionportal.com/adv...ition-overland-episode-4-qlaugh-and-cryq.html. These guys traveled over a lot of terrain in parts of the country that most of us would dream to go. Their rigs are not radical at all and have very smart modifications.

 

[JIMBO]

:sombrero: Or buy a RUBICON !

Minimum modifications required-

:costumed-smiley-007:wings: JIMBO

 

[Demon4x4]

That is all good advice. I might disagree on the order of things, but it's all good advice, nonetheless.

A couple of comments though (my opinions only, of course):

Limited slips still slip.

You can achieve nearly the same effect by unlocking one of the hubs, which will also aid in steering for those without power steering (who does that, anyway?).

Most people that I run with think of winches as a luxury item, whereas lockers are practically essential equipment. My group ran for a number of years without a winch between us, though I can totally understand how that perspective might change for single vehicle excursions.

If you are more concerned with street manners above anything else, I'd argue for a limited slip in the rear, and a full locker in the front, since you can unlock the front hubs to make that locker a non-issue except when needed.

I don't know if I agree with the argument that a locker will just get you into places that you shouldn't be, any more than a winch will.

The rock crawler and trailer rig owners will swear by lockers and welded diffs, but those machines aren't daily drives and can't be driven on the roads most of the time, much less on a 300-500 mile road trip.

As mentioned earlier, I have done just this, daily driven and on over 1200+ mile road trips (each direction) for nearly 100,000 miles in this configuration (truck is at 280k now). You have the option of unlocking the front hubs for street use, and then you only have to put up with an occassional tire chirp on turns from the rear.

 

[Metcalf]

While it has been mentioned that an ARB will eventually leak as the o-ring seals wear out, you also have to remember that friction plate type limited slip differentials will also wear out over time. A differential like a detroit tru-trac will not wear out. They use gear bias to form a limited slip differential. If you don't want to deal with a full time locker this is another excellent option.

I think this board sometimes blurs the line between what I would call 'expedition' 'wheeling and what I would call 'recreational' 'wheeling. That needs to be kept in mind when making decisions.

The winch vs lockers debate is kinda like automatic vs manual. Your always going to get a different opinion. My opinion on that matter is that a winch will always get you home. Lockers just get you stuck further from home. You might be able to pull yourself into some strange situations with a winch, but you also have the ability to pull yourself out. With lockers, unless you use perfect judgement all the time, they are going to have limitations and leave you stuck at some point. Having both is probably the best bet. If you can only have one or the other I would probably choose a winch.

If your constantly traveling with other vehicles, you essentially have a good means of recovery most of the time. I have been in many a situation where having a 2nd or 3rd vehicle didn't make a lick of difference when trying to get the vehicle unstuck. It did provide a faster trip back to town however to get help. I have also been on many trips when all the vehicles had lockers and more than one vehicle got stuck at the same time. That situation makes a means of self recovery, like a winch, a really attractive option!

Most people can't afford to build everything all at one. A lot of people can't afford a new Jeep Rubicon. I spent decades getting stuck doing stupid things. I walked back to town MANY times! I've dug vehicles out with license plates and screw drivers. I've sat on the cowl of a truck with the hood removed pouring fuel down the carb to get back to town after the fuel pump failed. Sometimes you just have to make due with what you have....

 

[BIGdaddy]

Lockers are just one step towards having a rig that can do anything you ask of it.

A mid-sized SUV/Jeep/Discovery sized rig with quality offroad tires in the 30-31" range will keep up with, and sometimes "out-do" a bigger tired "open/open" rig any day of the week.


Also with lockers, you're usually able to bang and whang on the rig quite a bit less than with open diffs.


As for lockers vs. a winch...I say get them both.


I have a lift, good tires, a winch bumper, and a Warn m8000 winch on my rig right now. Upgraded rear axle with locker, and full armor are next.

And I'll still drive it everyday.

 

[JIMBO]

:sombrero: Heh heh, no truer words were ever spake !

While it has been mentioned that an ARB will eventually leak as the o-ring seals wear out, you also have to remember that friction plate type limited slip differentials will also wear out over time. A differential like a detroit tru-trac will not wear out. They use gear bias to form a limited slip differential. If you don't want to deal with a full time locker this is another excellent option.

I think this board sometimes blurs the line between what I would call 'expedition' 'wheeling and what I would call 'recreational' 'wheeling. That needs to be kept in mind when making decisions.

The winch vs lockers debate is kinda like automatic vs manual. Your always going to get a different opinion. My opinion on that matter is that a winch will always get you home. Lockers just get you stuck further from home. You might be able to pull yourself into some strange situations with a winch, but you also have the ability to pull yourself out. With lockers, unless you use perfect judgement all the time, they are going to have limitations and leave you stuck at some point. Having both is probably the best bet. If you can only have one or the other I would probably choose a winch.

If your constantly traveling with other vehicles, you essentially have a good means of recovery most of the time. I have been in many a situation where having a 2nd or 3rd vehicle didn't make a lick of difference when trying to get the vehicle unstuck. It did provide a faster trip back to town however to get help. I have also been on many trips when all the vehicles had lockers and more than one vehicle got stuck at the same time. That situation makes a means of self recovery, like a winch, a really attractive option!

Most people can't afford to build everything all at one. A lot of people can't afford a new Jeep Rubicon. I spent decades getting stuck doing stupid things. I walked back to town MANY times! I've dug vehicles out with license plates and screw drivers. I've sat on the cowl of a truck with the hood removed pouring fuel down the carb to get back to town after the fuel pump failed. Sometimes you just have to make due with what you have....

I only mentioned RUBICON, because they come with just about what the average rec off-roaded needs-

Mine is 4 years old and I have Modified it 52 times--it just happened to be a great starting platform and I have two mobile winchs !!!but

Your words are words of wisdom --

:costumed-smiley-007:wings: JIMBO

 

[Bergum]

If you are going for a winsh over lockers, put it in the rear of your car. With a winch you will climb trees, hills and so one.
What you need is something to pull you out.
A winch in the front will only get you more stuck.

B4x4.no

 

[4x4junkie]

Air lockers are nice but expensive. Look at about US$1,000 or more per axle. Every shop I spoke with that has long term experience will tell you that they all will eventually leak. If you have the money to spend, they are nice, but I prefer to keep it simple. With a mechanical locking differential, you just don't have to think about it.

That might be true, however I think the key word here is "eventually". IME it's not something you have to worry about for some time.
I've had an ARB in the front of a Ranger pickup since 1997 with 0 issues. Yeah front axle doesn't see many miles of wear, but I've also had the two in my BII since 2004 & 36,000 miles also with 0 issues. Sure, careless installs can (and do) happen... Finding a shop to install it that has a decent record on ARB installs should better your odds of not having any issues. Or better yet, if you're competent at axle work, DIY.

Unless you do nothing but rockcrawling, 99% of the time lockers simply aren't needed (especially while on the street). Outside of having an issue with cost, I just don't see a good reason for having to put up with an automatic locker's quirks for that 99% of the time.

 

[Metcalf]

Why can't someone make a selectable 'automatic' locker.....open or a ratchet type locker. That would be cool.

In a front application I think the spool action of most selectable lockers gives something up to automatic locker that can ratchet and relieve some bind in the front diff. Sure, you can turn the selectable locker off, but in most situations it takes a bit of 'unwinding' of the front axle before it will unlock. The same generally goes for the rear locker.

I have also been doing a lot of research into the front autolocker, rear open ( or selectable ) thing lately. If you work out the math on how far each tire has to travel when turning the biggest inside to outside difference is to the REAR tires. There is also a pretty big difference between the front and rear axle that isn't really accounted for a lot of times. Having somewhere for that bind to go like the inside rear tire might be the best thing to do? Heck, if you get down to it having a different ratio front to rear might not be a bad thing really to eliminate bind and the push you get front to rear in a 4wd vehicle

I like thinking too much......

 

[Buliwyf]

Why can't someone make a selectable 'automatic' locker.....open or a ratchet type locker. That would be cool.

In a front application I think the spool action of most selectable lockers gives something up to automatic locker that can ratchet and relieve some bind in the front diff. Sure, you can turn the selectable locker off, but in most situations it takes a bit of 'unwinding' of the front axle before it will unlock. The same generally goes for the rear locker.

I have also been doing a lot of research into the front autolocker, rear open ( or selectable ) thing lately. If you work out the math on how far each tire has to travel when turning the biggest inside to outside difference is to the REAR tires. There is also a pretty big difference between the front and rear axle that isn't really accounted for a lot of times. Having somewhere for that bind to go like the inside rear tire might be the best thing to do? Heck, if you get down to it having a different ratio front to rear might not be a bad thing really to eliminate bind and the push you get front to rear in a 4wd vehicle

I like thinking too much......

You're 100% right, and on to a very good point. There are many times that my allmost stock truck needs locker grip, but I'm in a half grippy condition where I don't want my axles locked. Like pavement with gravel on one side, sharp turn, up hill, in 2wd. Even with mighty 1 ton axles the ratchet action is handy.

In Florida the Jeepers use 4.10 up front and 4.11 rear. Jeeps stink in mud down there, and this helps. I just kept my Jeep dry instead.

Oh, and a couple people above mentioned the Truetrac's don't wear out. Yes, they absolutly will wear out. Eventually they get real grabby, or worse they get loose and more open diff like. I wore one out in a Mustang. Others have killed them in fullsize trucks. They're great in the front of smaller SUV's and sometimes trucks, as the front deosn't get used as often, but I avoid the truetrac in the rear except for little SUV's.

 

[ReconH3]

There was a guy in the UK that made diffs for Land Rovers that were LSD when open, but you could lock them 100% like ARB. Perfect combo. Unfortunately I can't remember his name or company. He used to make HD axles for LRs too.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Metcalf]

This one?

http://www.kamdiffs.com/products-2/kam-difflock/

I would still like to see a selectable locker that was 'automatic' when locked, not spooled.