LR3 Market.

[R_Lefebvre]

I've been thinking the same thing. If I win the lottery, I'll have to get a number of 04's from the SW and store them.

 

[Snagger]

And what first-hand knowledge do you have?

...

It is the customers who are morons.

None, but that doesn't make me a fool. Land Rover has had a reputation for terrible build quality, reliability and maintenance costs ever since the 1970s. That's why the Japanese trucks took over. The latest vehicles may be put together more precisely (not including the Defender, which is as shoddy as ever), but once the vehicles are old enough that many of them start needing things like suspension parts, engine belts or clutches, it will quickly show up in the review magazines how ludicrously expensive maintenance is on these vehicles. Second hand sales will plummet, slowing new sales and further wrecking LR's reputation for ownership costs. It's plain stupidity to design a vehicle without considering ease of maintenance.

 

[Antichrist]

I think a lot of people who loove their D3s will have second thoughts when they need to replace their clutches or engine drive belts. The LR specified method of clutch replacement takes 15 hours of labour (at over £110 per hour), involving separating and lifting the body away from the chassis,

Hmmm..I didn't know that. Seems like that would be another down side to using a D3 as an expedition vehicle...not to revive an old thread LOL.
15 hours at a dealer could very well turn in to weeks in the bush.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

None, but that doesn't make me a fool. Land Rover has had a reputation for terrible build quality, reliability and maintenance costs ever since the 1970s. That's why the Japanese trucks took over. The latest vehicles may be put together more precisely (not including the Defender, which is as shoddy as ever), but once the vehicles are old enough that many of them start needing things like suspension parts, engine belts or clutches, it will quickly show up in the review magazines how ludicrously expensive maintenance is on these vehicles. Second hand sales will plummet, slowing new sales and further wrecking LR's reputation for ownership costs. It's plain stupidity to design a vehicle without considering ease of maintenance.

Have you looked at any other vehicles before making this statement?

ALL vehicles are made this way now. Look under the hood of a Mini. A BMW. Audi, Volvo... they're all the same.

For example, I have extensive knowlege of the Focus. A simple economy car. Also, one that after a few years of teething, achieved quality accolades. There is only 1" between the back of the transmission and the subframe rail. The entire powertrain is assembled on a skid, right on top of the front suspension and popped right up into the chassis from below. Therefore, changing the clutch means you have to drop the engine first. After dropping the front suspension first.

Similarly, the exhaust is installed as one long piece, before the rear suspension. Want to see how to remove it without cutting it off?

This is not a Land Rover thing, or a Ford thing. This is a new car thing.

 

[Snagger]

This is not a Land Rover thing, or a Ford thing. This is a new car thing.

I know that's true, however, an Audi, Focus, Lexus or whatever else doesn't need to be repairable in African workshops or the middle of the desert or jungle.

It's bad design for any car to need such extensive disassembly for routine maintenance, but for vehicles designed to operate in remote areas or third world countries, it's plain folly. LR had kept the "rest of the world" spec Defenders relatively simple by retaining the 300Tdi, but that is now finished. What do they plan to sell in it's place?

It will seriously undermine LR's efforts to be seen to reduce the long term cost of ownership - the quality of assembly may have improved, but if the complexity and cost of maintenance has gone up, then customer satisfaction will go down. It could be a bad enough mistake that it will cause the end of the company, in my opinion; I would never own a D3, D4, L322 or RR Sport, and nor would any of the staff at the local LR specialist dealer/service garage (they all think the vehicles are insane too).

 

[R_Lefebvre]

That's a whole other matter then.

Land Rover doesn't care about this market. There is no money in it.

 

[Snagger]

That's a whole other matter then.

Land Rover doesn't care about this market. There is no money in it.

I don't think they'll just lose the third world market - I think they'll lose too much of the European and North American markets too when the long term costs of ownership of the new models become widely known. People won't by second hand because of the maintenance costs, and people won't buy new because the depreciation will be astronomical, with no way of selling on.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I don't argue that. I think they've pretty much sold the farm at this point. It's not that the trucks are *bad* compared to everything else out there. It's just that they've thrown away their heritage, to become this posh brand. It might have worked had the SUV market remained strong, but it hasn't and is likely to get worse.

I really think a lot of brands have really closed the gap with Toyota quality, but the perception of that lags. Dealership experience has a big part to play in that.

 

[Snagger]

My mechanic friend finished tha D3 clutch yesterday, along with its timing belt and the blanking of its EGR valves. Total cost, considering this is an LR specialist garage that charges labour at well under half that of a franchise? £1600!:Wow1:

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I've seen people spend $1000 having the rear brakes of an Escort rebuilt at a shop. <Shrug> It's just the way things go these days. I think people are stupid for completely giving up on fixing their own cars. It's crazy.

 

[michaelgroves]

I don't think they'll just lose the third world market - I think they'll lose too much of the European and North American markets too when the long term costs of ownership of the new models become widely known. People won't by second hand because of the maintenance costs, and people won't buy new because the depreciation will be astronomical, with no way of selling on.

They will lose the third world market completely as soon as the Defender goes. And as Rob says, they'll lose the rest becase they are a SUV company in a world that increasingly doesn't want SUVs.

Land Rover falls between two stools, because they make class-leaders in off-road performance (by the standards of those classes), which necessarily makes them lesser cars on the road, and then sell them to people who don't want to go off-road!

I have a VW and a BMW, and the cost of parts and labour for both seems to be about the same as my friend's D3, for similar jobs. (Both are far below the cost of doing the same things to most Japanese cars, especially Toyota and Mitsubishi). He spends more, in total, than me, but then he takes his D3 off-road.

FWIW, my Defender costs about half what the others cost, for any given job (and I do take it off road).

 

[Snagger]

What strikes me is that they are not only becoming an SUV manufacturer, rather than 4wd utility manufacturer, but they're aiming to be a premium/luxury SUV manufacturer. It's a very exclusive product line up, and the problem is that most luxury drivers don't want SUVs and most SUV drivers don't want overly complicated vehicles. Utility owners (not just businesses, but emergency services and armed forces) want simple, reliable and tough vehicles. No-one is getting what they want while LR disappear up their own arrogant corporate backside.

What really galls me is that Tata have decided that LR will stop producing or stocking spares for any vehicle over 10 years of age, so they are really putting the boot into loyal enthusiasts and clubs, the only outspoken people who would praise rather than condemn the brand.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

The thing is, they pretty much had to move up-market so they could charge more for their vehicles. They couldn't surivive if all they kept producing were utility vehicles. There's just not enough profit there.

Sure, they used to be able to, but not anymore. Not with today's costs. Too many laws and regulations have really driven up the cost to design and build a vehicle.

 

[nwoods]

Snagger, you are correct. They migrated away from "Best4x4xFar" and purposefully became "Premium Off Road", and in the process, became the most profitable brand in Ford's stable. Not a very encouraging lesson learned. I think it explains the Toyota Land Cruiser 200 series.

 

[michaelgroves]

Utility owners (not just businesses, but emergency services and armed forces) want simple, reliable and tough vehicles. No-one is getting what they want while LR disappear up their own arrogant corporate backside.

The reality is, the market for 4WD utility vehicles is disappearing. Why would anyone need a Defender in Europe, when a Transit van will do the same job? Emergency services don't need simple, they need the same as everyone else: the long-term economy of mass production. So the police use Isuzu Troopers rather than Defenders, and who cares if they are up to the eyeballs in electronics? We expedition types, who value the ability to effect a bush repair, are in the extreme minority. Most UK emergency services don't even own their own vehicles, they outsource their transportation needs totally.

I don't think it's arrogance, I think it's inevitable that LR will define a new niche for themselves, or shrink until they vanish. As a matter of interest, what would you do if you were in charge?