Moab and more closing?

[Jim1960]

Worst of all, they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the intent of the wilderness, land use designations, clean water legislation, and biological services the environment provides and distort these topics to serve their purposes.

Agavelvr.....

I don't have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Wilderness Act. I know personally that it is was being used as a weapon to burn folks out of their homes. Take over mineral producing tracts of mountain ranges for the profit of the very few. And basically set aside this land for future monetary development. Not the clean water, clean air, preserve wildlife propaganda crap you are regurgitating. Yes some Wilderness now a days is for preservation, but for years it was only to take land, in a land grab by our government. pure and simple as that. And now it is a tool to be used by every environmentalists. The net end result is a "people free corridor" from mexico to Canada.

BTW, I do not get my info from the BRC, I lived it! I have fought this **** hole government for years because everyone I know was burned to the ground without an apology or compensation in the name of the Wilderness Act & Desert protection act. Another major scam is the "Forrest Adventure Pass" all the sheeple in this country fell for that one. Disney corp loves you.

 

[paulj]

Pay close attention to California. The only thing this map does not show is military land. if it did, you would see that we the public are left with scraps of "no commercial value" and "no minerals" land. Our government is taking away our land and they need to be confronted as to why. OHV's and motorcycles barely destroy the land and the animal life is not effected by ohv's either. It's all propaganda.

Pay attention to the boundaries of those wilderness areas. In most cases, if there is a boundary between two different areas, it's because a road between them. Boundary lines projecting into wilderness areas define existing roads that remain open to wheel travel, or streams used by area ranchers. In fact if you zoom in far enough you will see the boundaries outline roads. This is called 'cherry stemming'. Defining these boundaries is a normal part of the wilderness designation negotiations.

Before bemoaning that your favorite backcountry road will be blocked by a wilderness designation, check the proposed maps to see if it will be cherry stemmed. If it isn't, there's a good chance that it's 'road' status is under dispute. Just because it is possible, in dry conditions, to drive along a stream bed, does not make it a 'road'.

Keep in mind that roads and trails are measured by length, not their 'area'. So a road can be cherry stemmed without appreciably changing the area of a wilderness area. So statistics about wilderness area, whether as square miles or percentages, tell little about miles of road that have been closed, or remain open. Areas do say something about land that is closed to indiscriminate OHV travel. I'm sure you don't advocate drawing donuts all over the desert floor (or mountain meadow) just because your ATV can do it!

 

[Jim1960]

:Wow1:I thought we were going to be civil on these conservation threads.
You really need to check your facts before posting such rhetoric on this forum.
Wheelchairs are all allowed to access the wilderness. I'm pretty sure hang gliders and gliders are allowed within 'wilderness' airspace too.

Before I comment further, what is the difference in your mind between "barely destroy" and destroy?

Go out and read the posted signs my friend, it will educate you. Although I tossed in wheelchairs (they do have wheels), gliders are forbidden as well as hang gliders. "Only foot traffic and horses" are allowed onto wilderness land.

This is a hot topic that each one of us has an opinion, and we all stand behind our opinions. Wilderness is needed to keep people from "Building" and "developing" and "monetizing" the land. I would be happy if they left all the historic mining structures intact, and the roads open, then you could have all the wilderness you want, but they wont.

 

[paulj]

...Yes some Wilderness now a days is for preservation, but for years it was only to take land, in a land grab by our government. pure and simple as that.....

Are you claiming that private land has been expropriated by the US Government for inclusion in designated Wilderness Areas?

 

[1leglance]

Ok Mod Hat On.
Jim my friend please take it down a notch and let's keep this thread alive.

All positions are best supported with facts vs stories. If you have facts please post them, this goes for everyone.

This is an emotional topic and an important one, let's act like adults and keep talking and keep doing something about it. Getting a thread closed with comments like "the crap you regur.." well that just isn't helpful.

Back to the civil and polite discussion like the gentleman that we are.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...If you ask me, the BRC and USAA are really a black eye for the overlanding community and the average outdoor recreationalist. They routinely use scare tactics to imply that we will lose access to millions of acres, even when provisions for cherry stems and access corridors are provided. They routinely insult folks like us who enjoy both motorized recreation and visiting wilderness locations that are free from vehicular use. Worst of all, they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the intent of the wilderness, land use designations, clean water legislation, and biological services the environment provides and distort these topics to serve their purposes....

If you ask me, apathetic fence sitters are the black eye. With extremist groups on both sides we stand to find something in the middle. Is it the optimal solution? Of course not, ideally there would be a middle ground to work on.

Show me where Usa-All or BRC " insult folks like us who enjoy both motorized recreation and visiting wilderness locations" having been a member of both and having done considerable more Wilderness visiting than most here in Utah, I've never felt offended by either group.

I can guarantee you those within BRC & Usa-All have plenty of "understanding of the intent of the wilderness, land use designations, clean water legislation, and biological services the environment provides and distort these topics to serve their purposes". Show me where you come up with this.

The fact is simple, the Wilderness proposed by the ARWA doesn't meet the definition of Wilderness in many cases, the state agrees, the BLM agrees (they are being sued for their recent RMP disclosures in which they identified just a fraction of the "Wilderness" that the WAG inventory did). I am for Wilderness and I would love to see more be designated in Utah. Unfortunately Wilderness advocacy is about as profitable as Global Warming and the solution isn't financially suitable in many cases. Think I'm wrong about the fear-mongering playing to line the pockets? What about the Wilderness proposal that BRC's Brian Hawthorne worked on and SUWA et all reject as it was a compromise. Would protecting land 10 years ago have not been more important than continuing to increase their proposal and playing on the sympathetic ears of easterners??

On that note, if things are so bad here in Utah that we need a die hard Wilderness designation to protect it versus pro-active land management? Then how come they keep finding more Wilderness land each time they inventory? Despite an increase in OHV use, increase in mining and oil? Its been shown that mines, roads, buildings and cattle don't seem to disqualify Wilderness by the ARWA proposal?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Vehicles are allowed to travel through wilderness areas when traveling on an approved road or access corridor...

And that sums up the entire crux of the Wilderness issue in Utah for many OHV advocates. "Approved Roads", a very ambiguous word road. See there are 'roads' according to the citizens, according to the county, according to the state, according to history, that are billed off as 'faint two tracks' or seldom used cattle trails, or illegally created user routes (created by pioneers in some cases). Wilderness and Wilderness Study Areas have closed dozens of routes that pre-dated the entire Wilderness campaign in many cases, yet they were not cherry-stemmed, they were not 'approved' as you say. Preserved and protect the existing routes in theses areas and the issue would calm, instead they consider it a compromise.

Now there are many other issues for Utahns too, the lack of mineral extraction, livestock concerns, timber, etc. Honestly I'm not really in tune with those issues and can't speak one way or the other but when it comes to closing a 75+ year old road into the remote depths of a seldom visited area. I call BS, there is no harm in the continued access if the last 75 years of access havn't even precluded it from having the Wilderness characteristics that AWRA demands.

 

[Rando]

Well, I was going to continue the civil discussion that had been going on in this thread, but it seems to have taken a turn for the worse. The only thing to I would like to comment on is that the very thing that makes me dislike the BRC and its ilk has reared its head here. Terms like 'land grab', untruths about what wilderness is, slippery slope fallacies are exactly the tactics that prohibit a sensible discussion of wilderness and any hope at a compromise solution.

 

[craig333]

Its only recently that wheelchairs have been allowed in Wilderness. As a former CDF firefighter, national parks and wilderness areas were our bane. While in theory you can make acceptions to the wilderness rules in emergencies, in practice its just not done. Practically takes an act of congress.

I know not every Wilderness is administered identically but I've never seen one that allowed hang gliders.

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=manageIssuesPCU&print=yes
Prohibitions and Conflicting Use
Why are motorized equipment and mechanical transport prohibited in wilderness?
The Wilderness Act states "...there should be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport..." Where motorboat and aircraft were used before a wilderness was designated, the Wilderness Act, the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act, and other laws allow use to continue. Mobility-impaired persons, or persons with disabilities, may use wheelchairs in wilderness. Motorized wheelchairs, which are suitable for indoor use, (i.e. battery and electric motor driven) are also allowed under provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

The Wilderness Act makes exceptions for wilderness managers to use motorized equipment and methods of mechanical transport, but only "...as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of the Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area)..." Where possible, managers try to use traditional tools, skills and methods of travel, even if they may be more costly or time-consuming. Exceptions where managers may use motorized equipment or methods of mechanical transport might include search and rescue, fire fighting, or fish stocking if it occurred before an area was designated.
Why are some non-motorized devices such as hang gliders, parasails and bicycles not allowed in wilderness?
Hang gliders and bicycles are considered mechanical transport, methods of transportation prohibited by the Wilderness Act. Both hang gliders and parasails are forms of aircraft, which are prohibited from landing in wilderness. All tend to intrude on the wilderness experience of other visitors. The Wilderness Act recognizes the wilderness resource as a place that "...has outstanding opportunities for solitude..." In most cases there are opportunities for these activities to take place outside of wilderness.
What about geocaching?
Geocaching on public lands, and in designated wilderness, is a growing activity as evidenced by the number of locations and trends documented at: http://www.geocaching.com. Many people enjoy downloading information on a geocache site and then using their orienteering skills and global positioning systems (GPS) units to find the site. Both urban and remote geocache sites exist but in many cases the more remote locations, such as those in wilderness, are the most popular with those seeking to enjoy the outdoors.

Wilderness managers have seen an increase in geocaching activity in many areas. And, while wilderness is for the 'use and enjoyment' of the public the practice of locating geocaches in wilderness can lead to social trail development and resource degradation that would not otherwise not occur. In addition, many managers consider geocaches as abandoned property or litter and therefore, they are not allowed in wilderness.

Information and education efforts have proven successful in some areas where managers have contacted cache owners or worked with web site providers to discourage geocaches in wilderness and encourage use of Leave No Trace techniques when visiting wilderness.
What are the most common violations of the law in wilderness?
This varies by area, but off-road vehicles, such as snowmobiles, and wheeled vehicles, such as bicycles, are illegal in wilderness and are often cited. Where the wilderness borders a road or off-road vehicle trail or where vehicles had historically been used in that wilderness, vehicle trespass can be a serious problem. Many wildernesses require dogs to be kept on a leash, and these regulations are often violated. Littering, shortcutting switchbacks, and camping and confining pack and saddle stock in areas that are being rehabilitated, or are too close to lakes and streams are other common violations.
What is the policy on aircraft flights over wilderness?
There are restrictions for aircraft flights only over the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. The Federal Aviation Administration has issued a Notice to Airmen that a minimum altitude of 2,000 feet above the terrain (or above the uppermost rim of a canyon or valley) over wilderness and National Parks be voluntarily observed by all aircraft. Boundaries of many wildernesses are marked on aeronautical maps produced by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. In some wildernesses, military over flights and other airplanes can be heard by visitors. The Forest Service and National Park Service are cooperatively studying the effects of aircraft noise on visitors in selected wildernesses and parks.
What is the policy on staging competitive events in wilderness?
Races, endurance runs, special events, and large organized hikes are prohibited in wilderness. The basis of this policy is that wilderness was established to provide "...outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation.." according to the Wilderness Act. Competitive events in wilderness tend to lessen the wilderness experience for others, and there are many opportunities for such events outside of wilderness.


Funny you mention mercenaries. Never heard of them in relation to BRC but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Whats funny is that tactic was pioneered by the radical environmentalists. Maybe I'll tell you why I am a former card carrying member of the Sierra Club.

 

[craig333]

Btw, I don't know of any advocacy group that is opposed to the original Wilderness act or Wilderness that meets its criteria. Not one.

Public Law 88-577 (16 U.S. C. 1131-1136)
88th Congress, Second Session
September 3, 1964

AN ACT
To establish a National Wilderness Preservation System for the permanent good of the whole people, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,


SHORT TITLE

Section 1. This Act may be cited as the "Wilderness Act".


WILDERNESS SYSTEM ESTABLISHED STATEMENT OF POLICY

Sec. 2. (a) In order to assure that an increasing population, accompanied by expanding settlement and growing mechanization, does not occupy and modify all areas within the United States and its possessions, leaving no lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition, it is hereby declared to be the policy of the Congress to secure for the American people of present and future generations the benefits of an enduring resource of wilderness. For this purpose there is hereby established a National Wilderness Preservation System to be composed of federally owned areas designated by Congress as "wilderness areas", and these shall be administered for the use and enjoyment of the American people in such manner as will leave them unimpaired for future use as wilderness, and so as to provide for the protection of these areas, the preservation of their wilderness character, and for the gathering and dissemination of information regarding their use and enjoyment as wilderness; and no Federal lands shall be designated as "wilderness areas" except as provided for in this Act or by a subsequent Act.


(b) The inclusion of an area in the National Wilderness Preservation System notwithstanding, the area shall continue to be managed by the Department and agency having jurisdiction thereover immediately before its inclusion in the National Wilderness Preservation System unless otherwise provided by Act of Congress. No appropriation shall be available for the payment of expenses or salaries for the administration of the National Wilderness Preservation System as a separate unit nor shall any appropriations be available for additional personnel stated as being required solely for the purpose of managing or administering areas solely because they are included within the National Wilderness Preservation System.


DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS


(c) A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.


NATIONAL WILDERNESS PRESERVATION SYSTEM -- EXTENT OF SYSTEM

Sec. 3. (a) All areas within the national forests classified at least 30 days before September 30, 1964, by the Secretary of Agriculture or the Chief of the Forest Service as "wilderness", "wild", or "canoe" are hereby designated as wilderness areas. The Secretary of Agriculture shall --

(1) Within one year after September 30, 1964, file a map and legal description of each wilderness area with the Interior and Insular Affairs Committees of the United States Senate and the House of Representatives, and such descriptions shall have the same force and effect as if included in this Act: Provided, however, That correction of clerical and typographical errors in such legal descriptions and maps may be made.

(2) Maintain, available to the public, records pertaining to said wilderness areas, including maps and legal descriptions, copies of regulations governing them, copies of public notices of, and reports submitted to Congress regarding pending additions, eliminations, or modifications. Maps, legal descriptions, and regulations pertaining to wilderness areas within their respective jurisdictions also shall be available to the public in the offices of regional foresters, national forest supervisors, and forest rangers.


(b) The Secretary of Agriculture shall, within ten years after September 30, 1964, review, as to its suitability or nonsuitability for preservation as wilderness, each area in the national forests classified on September 3, 1964, by the Secretary of Agriculture or the Chief of the Forest Service as "primitive" and report his findings to the President. The President shall advise the United States Senate and House of Representatives of his recommendations with respect to the designation as "wilderness" or other reclassification of each area on which review has been completed, together with maps and a definition of boundaries. Such advice shall be given with respect to not less than one-third of all the areas now classified as "primitive" within three years after September 3, 1964, not less than two-thirds within seven years after September 3, 1964, and the remaining areas within ten years after September 3, 1964. Each recommendation of the President for designation as "wilderness" shall become effective only if so provided by an Act of Congress. Areas classified as "primitive" on September 3, 1964, shall continue to be administered under the rules and regulations affecting such areas on September 3, 1964, until Congress has determined otherwise. Any such area may be increased in size by the President at the time he submits his recommendation to the Congress by not more than five thousand acres with no more than one thousand two hundred and eighty acres of such increase in any one compact unit; if it is proposed to increase the size of any such area by more than five thousand acres or by more than one thousand two hundred and eighty acres in any one compact unit the increase in size shall not become effective until acted upon by Congress. Nothing herein contained shall limit the President in proposing, as part of his recommendations to Congress, the alteration of existing boundaries of primitive areas or recommending the addition of any contiguous area of national forest lands predominantly of wilderness value. Not withstanding any other provisions of this Act, the Secretary of Agriculture may complete his review and delete such area as may be necessary, but not to exceed seven thousand acres, from the southern tip of the Gore Range-Eagles Nest Primitive Area, Colorado, if the Secretary determines that such action is in the public interest.


(c) Within ten years after September 3, 1964, the Secretary of the Interior shall review every roadless area of five thousand contiguous acres or more in the national parks, monuments and other units of the national park system and every such area of, and every roadless island within, the national wildlife refuges and game ranges, under his jurisdiction on September 3, 1964, and shall report to the President his recommendation as to the suitability or nonsuitability of each such area or island for preservation as wilderness. The President shall advise the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives of his recommendation with respect to the designation as wilderness of each such area or island on which review has been completed, together with a map thereof and a definition of its boundaries. Such advice shall be given with respect to not less than one-third of the areas and islands to be reviewed under this subsection within three years after September 3, 1964, not less than two-thirds within seven years of September 3, 1964, and the remainder within ten years of September 3, 1964. A recommendation of the President for designation as wilderness shall become effective only if so provided by an Act of Congress. Nothing contained herein shall, by implication or otherwise, be construed to lessen the present statutory authority of the Secretary of the Interior with respect to the maintenance of roadless areas within units of the national park system.


(d) (1) The Secretary of Agriculture and the Secretary of the Interior shall, prior to submitting any recommendations to the President with respect to the suitability of any area for preservation as wilderness --

(A) give such public notice of the proposed action as they deem appropriate, including publication in the Federal Register and in a newspaper having general circulation in the area or areas in the vicinity of the affected land;

(B) hold a public hearing or hearings at a location or locations convenient to the area affected. The hearings shall be announced through such means as the respective Secretaries involved deem appropriate, including notices in the Federal Register and in newspapers of general circulation in the area: Provided, That if the lands involved are located in more than one State, at least one hearing shall be held in each State in which a portion of the land lies;

(C) at least thirty days before the date of a hearing advise the Governor of each State and the governing board of each county, or in Alaska the borough, in which the lands are located, and Federal departments and agencies concerned, and invite such officials and Federal agencies to submit their views on the proposed action at the hearing or by not later than thirty days following the date of the hearing.

(2) Any views submitted to the appropriate Secretary under the provisions of (1) of this subsection with respect to any area shall be included with any recommendations to the President and to Congress with respect to such area.


(e) Any modification or adjustment of boundaries of any wilderness area shall be recommended by the appropriate Secretary after public notice of such proposal and public hearing or hearings as provided on subsection (d) of this section. The proposed modification or adjustment shall then be recommended with map and description thereof to the President. The President shall advise the United States Senate and the House of Representatives of his recommendations with respect to such modification or adjustment and such recommendations shall become effective only on the same manner as provided for in subsections (b) and (c) of this section.


USE OF WILDERNESS AREAS

Sec. 4. (a) The purposes of this Act are hereby declared to be within and supplemental to the purposes for which national forests and units of the national park and national wildlife refuge systems are established and administered and --

(1) Nothing in this Act shall be deemed to be in interference with the purpose for which national forests are established as set forth in the Act of June 4, 1897 (30 Stat. 11), and the Multiple Use Sustained-Yield Act of June 12, 1960 (74 Stat. 215).

(2) Nothing in this Act shall modify the restrictions and provisions of the Shipstead-Nolan Act (Public Law 539, Seventy-first Congress, July 10, 1930; 46 Stat. 1020),the Thye-Blatnik Act (Public Law 733, Eightieth Congress, June 22, 1948; 62 Stat. 568), and the Humphrey-Thye-Blatnik-Andersen Act (Public Law 607, Eighty-fourth Congress, June 22.1965; 70 Stat. 326), as applying to the Superior National Forest or the regulations of the Secretary of Agriculture.

(3) Nothing in this Act shall modify the statutory authority under which units of the national park system are created. Further, the designation of any area of any park, monument, or other unit of the national park system as a wilderness area pursuant to this Act shall in no manner lower the standards evolved for the use and preservation of such park, monument, or other unit of the national park system in accordance with the Act of August 25, 1916, the statutory authority under which the area was created, or any other Act of Congress which might pertain to or affect such area, including, but not limited to, the Act of June 8, 1906 (34 Stat. 225; 16 U.S.C. 432 et seq.); section 3(2) of the Federal Power Act (16 U.S.C. 796 (2) ); and the Act of August 21,1935 (49 Stat. 666; 16 U.S.C. 461 et seq.).


(b) Except as otherwise provided in this Act, each agency administering any area designated as wilderness shall be responsible for preserving the wilderness character of the area and shall so administer such area for such other purposes for which it may have been established as also to preserve its wilderness character. Except as otherwise provided in this Act, wilderness areas shall be devoted to the public purposes of recreational, scenic, scientific, educational, conservation, and historical use.


PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES


(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.


SPECIAL PROVISIONS

 

[craig333]

continued.



(d) The following special provisions are hereby made:

(1) Within wilderness areas designated by this Act the use of aircraft or motorboats, where these uses have already become established, may be permitted to continue subject to such restrictions as the Secretary of Agriculture deems desirable. In addition, such measures may be taken as may be necessary in the control of fire, insects, and diseases, subject to such conditions as the Secretary deems desirable.

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment. Furthermore, in accordance with such program as the Secretary of the Interior shall develop and conduct in consultation with the Secretary of Agriculture, such areas shall be surveyed on a planned, recurring basis consistent with the concept of wilderness preservation by the Geological Survey and the Bureau of Mines to determine the mineral values, if any, that may be present; and the results of such surveys shall be made available to the public and submitted to the President and Congress.

(3) Not withstanding any other provisions of this Act, until midnight December 31, 1983, the United States mining laws and all laws pertaining to mineral leasing shall, to the extent as applicable prior to September 3, 1964, extend to those national forest lands designated by this Act as "wilderness areas"; subject, however, to such reasonable regulations governing ingress and egress as may be prescribed by the Secretary of Agriculture consistent with the use of the land for mineral location and development and exploration, drilling, and production, and use of land for transmission lines, waterlines, telephone lines, or facilities necessary in exploring, drilling, producing, mining, and processing operations, including where essential the use of mechanized ground or air equipment and restoration as near as practicable of the surface of the land disturbed in performing prospecting, location, and , in oil and gas leasing, discovery work, exploration, drilling, and production, as soon as they have served their purpose. Mining locations lying within the boundaries of said wilderness areas shall be held and used solely for mining or processing operations and uses reasonably incident thereto; and hereafter, subject to valid existing rights, all patents issued under the mining laws of the United States affecting national forest lands designated by this Act as wilderness areas shall convey title to the mineral deposits within the claim, together with the right to cut and use so much of the mature timber therefrom as may be needed in the extraction, removal, and beneficiation of the mineral deposits, if needed timber is not otherwise reasonably available, and if the timber is cut under sound principles of forest management as defined by the national forest rules and regulations, but each such patent shall reserve to the United States all title in or to the surface of the lands and products thereof, and no use of the surface of the claim or the resources therefrom not reasonably required for carrying on mining or prospecting shall be allowed except as otherwise expressly provided in this Act: Provided, That, unless hereafter specifically authorized, no patent within wilderness areas designated by this Act shall issue after December 31, 1983, except for the valid claims existing on or before December 31, 1983. Mining claims located after September 3, 1964, within the boundaries of wilderness areas designated by this Act shall create no rights in excess of those rights which may be patented under the provisions of this subsection. Mineral leases, permits, and licenses covering lands within national forest wilderness areas designated by this Act shall contain such reasonable stipulations as may be prescribed by the Secretary of Agriculture for the protection of the wilderness character of the land consistent with the use of the land for the purposes for which they are leased, permitted, or licensed. Subject to valid rights then existing, effective January 1, 1984, the minerals in lands designated by this Act as wilderness areas are withdrawn from all forms of appropriation under the mining laws and from disposition under all laws pertaining to mineral leasing and all amendments thereto.

(4) Within wilderness areas in the national forests designated by this Act, (1) the President may, within a specific area and in accordance with such regulations as he may deem desirable, authorize prospecting for water resources, the establishment and maintenance of reservoirs, water-conservation works, power projects, transmission lines, and other facilities needed in the public interest, including the road construction and maintenance essential to development and use thereof, upon his determination that such use or uses in the specific area will better serve the interests of the United States and the people thereof than will its denial; and (2) the grazing of livestock, where established prior to September 3, 1964, shall be permitted to continue subject to such reasonable regulations as are deemed necessary by the Secretary of Agriculture.

(5) Other provisions of this Act to the contrary notwithstanding, the management of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, formerly designated as the Superior, Little Indian Sioux, and Caribou Roadless Areas, in the Superior National Forest, Minnesota, shall be in accordance with the general purpose of maintaining, without unnecessary restrictions on other uses, including that of timber, the primitive character of the area, particularly in the vicinity of lakes, streams, and portages: Provided, That nothing in this Act shall preclude the continuance within the area of any already established use of motorboats.

(6) Commercial services may be performed within the wilderness areas designated by this Act to the extent necessary for activities which are proper for realizing the recreational or other wilderness purposes of the areas.

(7) Nothing in this Act shall constitute an express or implied claim or denial on the part of the Federal Government as to exemption from State water laws.

(8) Nothing in this Act shall be construed as affecting the jurisdiction or responsibilities of the several States with respect to wildlife and fish in the national forests.


STATE AND PRIVATE LANDS WITHIN WILDERNESS AREAS

Sec. 5. (a) In any case where State-owned or privately owned land is completely surrounded by national forest lands within areas designated by this Act as wilderness, such State or private owner shall be given such rights as may be necessary to assure adequate access to such State-owned or privately owned land by such State or private owner and their successors in interest, or the State-owned land or privately owned land shall be exchanged for federally owned land in the same State of approximately equal value under authorities available to the Secretary of Agriculture: Provided, however, That the United States shall not transfer to a state or private owner any mineral interests unless the State or private owner relinquishes or causes to be relinquished to the United States the mineral interest in the surrounded land.


(b) In any case where valid mining claims or other valid occupancies are wholly within a designated national forest wilderness area, the Secretary of Agriculture shall, by reasonable regulations consistent with the preservation of the area as wilderness, permit ingress and egress to such surrounded areas by means which have been or are being customarily enjoyed with respect to other such areas similarly situated.


(c) Subject to the appropriation of funds by Congress, the Secretary of Agriculture is authorized to acquire privately owned land within the perimeter of any area designated by this Act as wilderness if (1) the owner concurs in such acquisition or (2) the acquisition is specifically authorized by Congress.


GIFTS, BEQUESTS, AND CONTRIBUTIONS

Sec. 6. (a) The Secretary of Agriculture may accept gifts or bequests of land within wilderness areas designated by this Act for preservation as wilderness. The Secretary of Agriculture may also accept gifts or bequests of land adjacent to wilderness areas designated by this Act for preservation as wilderness if he has given sixty days advance notice thereof to the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives. Land accepted by the Secretary of Agriculture under this section shall become part of the wilderness area involved. Regulations with regard to any such land may be in accordance with such agreements, consistent with the policy of this Act, as are made at the time of such gift, or such conditions, consistent with such policy, as may be included in, and accepted with, such bequest.


(b) The Secretary of Agriculture or the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to accept private contributions and gifts to be used to further the purpose of this Act.


ANNUAL REPORTS

Sec. 7. At the opening of each session of Congress, the Secretaries of Agriculture and Interior shall jointly report to the President for transmission to Congress on the status of the wilderness system, including a list and descriptions of the areas in the system, regulations in effect, and other pertinent information, together with any recommendations they may care to make.

Approved September 3, 1964.


_____________________
LEGISLATIVE HISTORY: HOUSE REPORTS: No. 1538 accompanying H.R. 9070 (Comm. on Interior & Insular Affairs) and
No. 1829 (Comm. of Conference).
SENATE REPORT: No. 109 (Comm. on Interior & Insular Affairs).
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD:
Vol. 109 (1963): Apr. 4, 8, considered in Senate.
Apr. 9, considered and passed Senate.
Vol. 110 (1964): July 28, considered in House
July 30, considered and passed House, amended, in lieu of H. R. 9070.
Aug. 20, House and Senate agreed to conference report.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Rather than post specific examples...

Nah, I'd rather you just post the example. If your going to make comments stereotyping them as such, back it up. Again I've been a member of both and have worked directly with them on projects, I don't share your view on their overall disposition.

That's insulting and underhanded if you ask me. Posting phrases like 'land grab', 'ecowennies', 'greenies', etc. are very obvious propaganda techniques used to color the argument. Wilderness groups that use the same techniques are equally guilty, I don't support them either.

You've obviously never seen the mirror image propaganda that comes from the radical Wilderness advocacy groups. They belittle RS2477 making it sound as if Counties are trying to claim cattle paths.

The worst part for me is the BRC's attempt to forward the 'backcountry' land use designation. Their invented designation is a thinly veiled attempt to maintain and expand access, not protect the land for future use. That is a loss for everyone.

How is it not being protected with the current designations? If they can keep increasing the acreage of the ARWA proposals are things really that bad. As one that spends 50+ days a year in these areas I can tell you they are grossly mis-represented. SUWA might show you a nice picture of the "OHV Damage" at places like Factory Butte, what they don't show you is the same spot a day later after a brief rain or some wind. Six of our states BLM's offices just revised their Resource Management plans, part of that was inventoring potential Wilderness as well as areas of critical concern. Their findings were a stark difference than SUWA et als.

This topic has really been beat to death on this forum in the past 12 months, with the same arguments and comments surfacing in continual cycles. I wonder how many of Expo's 10000 members are just BRC mercenaries** here to post some quick rhetoric and then bail when they can't handle the debate (Kurt, this is not directed at you). The last time this happend, we had a number of new members join up with very interesting handles.

Can't be aimed at me... I've never bailed I see this land on a weekly basis, I don't see the problems others would have you beleive exist. I don't believe responsible vehicle use causes a negligible amount of impact in the grand scheme of an overall eco-system, hence where there are areas existing just like they were 200 years ago, despite the fact a historic road has accessed the area. I'm fine with Wilderness Areas, but they don't have to shut out existing access, cherry stem the roads. I just find it completely hypocritical that one can take issue with a road into a potential Wilderness area, yet justify their own travel, travel that is crucial to neither their work or lives, rather just for recreation. How can one minimize their impacts in x location while saying its just not appropriate in y location?

**these military terms are frequently used in BRC communications to describe themselves and thier enemies.

Examples would be appreciated. Been on the BRC mailing lists for years, can't think of a time where military terms have been 'frequently' used enough for me to notice.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm for Wilderness and would like to see a revised version of this actually happen in my lifetime. But I can personally name routes that are currently closed to Wilderness, are temporarily (defacto permenantly) closed to Wilderness Study Areas and would be closed under actual Wilderness. These were not 'wash routes' or 'user created routes in the recent years', these were routes shown as "Jeep Road" on maps 50 years ago. Routes discussed in old trail guides, hiking books, history articles, etc. Routes that were shown as "XXX Trail" on even BLM maps. Counties here are having to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to defend these routes against groups like SUWA that bill them off as 'seldom used two-tracks'.

Great conversation regardless, I'd really love to see your examples of BRC's shortfalls...

 

[Jim1960]

Mr. Moderator, I'll take it down a notch, Thank you for reminding me because I tend to get real fired up when it comes to the governments land grab.

I was going to keep this discussion going but what's the point. I'll will just say this:

"Wilderness Protection Act (WPA)" "Desert protection act (DPA)"

I personally have lost a lot$$$$$, My friends have lost a lot $$$$$, My boyhood haunts are now off limits and the roads are closed. Our gold producing mines have been shut down and burned to the ground with no apology, relocation or compensation. I have seen complete closures on all waterways in certain national forests by means of linked fence with razor wire, because of a frog with green legs. A frog which for the 25 years I was there did not exist anywhere until 7 days before closing everything. Suddenly frogs were everywhere. I have seen canyons in the panamint valley range get closed down by "out of state" eco lawyer groups because of the Panamint Lilly. A flower which is so resilient it withstood the 49ers their donkeys and mule trains and still sprouted up every spring. Yet they now say the 6+ jeeps that traverse the canyon per year are killing all the lilies.

The linked article provides details as to the origins of my families dilemma.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/bixman_20010615.html

The bottom line is this: A vast majority of WPA DPA land is being closed down for reasons other than protection of the land? Most people do not realize this, and it is evident by the attacks I have received in this thread. Stop this land grab now, or your children will not have land available to them in their future years.


Thank you Craig333 for this clarification

"Its only recently that wheelchairs have been allowed in Wilderness. As a former CDF firefighter, national parks and wilderness areas were our bane. While in theory you can make exceptions to the wilderness rules in emergencies, in practice its just not done. Practically takes an act of congress.

I know not every Wilderness is administered identically but I've never seen one that allowed hang gliders."

That's all. I'm done here

 

[roadkill]

I do not know if it has been proposed by the prowilderness groups or not but I have not seen or heard of any kind of compromise relating to access coming from them. The BRC has their "Backcountry" designation which is trying to find a middle ground on this issue. whether you like the BRC or the "Backcountry" designation they are trying to maintain some form of access.

 

[paulj]

The linked article provides details as to the origins of my families dilemma.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/bixman_20010615.html
...

Seems that the real issue here isn't the Wilderness creation, but the land swap - trading public land (usually FS or BLM) for private tracts, often some of those 'checkerboard' ones. There frequently are questions about who gets the better deal, not just in the California desert. I've seen them raised regarding forested tracts along I90 in the Washington Cascades.

I just mentioned, in another post, a swap in Utah, of BLM land for school trust land. Utah senators and reps sponsored this, in part because it gives Utah economically more productive land.

Complicating these Wilderness issues are several policies from the past, ones that were intended to promote development, or 'redeeming the land from the wilderness' (as I heard on the PBS Nat Parks episode last night).
- checkerboard land grants to railroads (incentive to lay tracks)
- state trust lands (incentives during the creation of the states)
- a liberal mining law
- that Civil War era RS 2477 roads provision