MTB, anyone riding a 29er?
- Thread starter dieselcruiserhead
- Start date
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Exactly the gearing I ride on my SS. I still walk. But then again our typical after work ride looks pretty much like a shark tooth with a 3 or 4 mile, 12% grade on each side.Flounder said:
dieselcruiserhead
16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
cool great posts responses here, especially and the info from Flounder and Dave, thanks guys...
OK here is a short novel / all of my info:
Body/torso/frame size: I am tall with long legs and arms, short torso.. I actually ride a XL 21" typically not a XXL 23", because of the short torso. In a perfect world I'd like a 23" seattube with a 21" sized frame because I do have to have the seat tube out considerably. I prefer the smaller frames for increased maneuverability and shorter wheelbase.
Sherwood at Ventana offered to build one of these for only $150 more... And I have a deal with Ventana (cost) because of some tradeout I do with a good friend who is a Ventana dealer and my local bike shop.. Trying to get the same deal with Turner as I like the frame design a little more.
I would fit and do fine with a traditional 23" frame but I like the smaller frame because of maneuverability and wheel base. In fact this whole discussion for me started with a wheelbase discussion about 2-3 weeks ago. I have been planning to step up to full suspension for next year all this year, but didn't know how I was going to do it... But I started thinking about keeping the front end down on my relatively-small-for-me-but-the-largest-size-they-make 21" stumpjumper. Which again I love. It is super stable and nimble and climbs like a goat, great all mountain bike.
The Sultan has a 1" longer virtual top tube which I think is a plus. It has 73" seat tube and 71" steep head angle for more agile turning, which is also same as the Stump Jumper which is a plus. Dave Turner's philosphy for the 29er is long frame short stem to give a little more umph to the big tire turning around.. Then use wide bars (which I already use) for stability and leverage. Which if I really wanted to do I'd get the 23" frame and a 70mm stem but am going to go with the 21" frame (with the 25.5 top tube) and probably a 90mm stem (versus my current setup, which I like a lot, that is a 24.3 top tube and a 120mm stem). I really like the 73/71 setup and I like that you can get more All-Mountain-like handling with the 29ers with a steeper steerer tube because of the higher axles.
And it does all make sense and I do think a lot about it in off-road terms.. Why 35" tires wheel so much better than 33" tires on hard terrain (similar deal, I never ever imagined I would end up on 35s which seem HUGE to me even today sometimes). And gearing, and ability to roll over stuff...
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RE wheel base: It occurred to me how just 1” or maybe 2” more in the rear would help me a lot with keeping the front end down. I think if I were an inch or two shorter then it would be a lot easier. And I do a good job of keeping it down with technique. But with super steep technicals, because I basically have the seat post maxed out, I do spin out a little more. But it turns out the Ventanas and Turners both have 2” more wheelbase, in both the 26er 5” and 29er 4” models. About perfect I figure, ~45” versus what I am at now, 43”. So I literally think it would be perfect. I would actually probably get me the XXL frame actually because “technically” it would fit me better, but I am not a fan of the ginormous wheel base – plus the big wheels.. It would be great on flats but a nightmare on switchbacks which yes we have plenty of…
So I have actually been pretty active on MTB and if you want to check you can follow my transition into my rational of this particular bike and 29er. Here is a good one: teetering on the brink of XXL. And everyone is saying do with the larger frame. Which nice to get some nice reasonable comments from you guys to reassure where my mind is. I am about 70-80% sold on the 29ers, but again will hop on one maybe even tonight or this weekend sometime hopefully.
Terrain wise and drops and wheel strength: I am at 225ish up to 235-240 loaded. So definitely heavier. So yes wheel strength is a big deal, I was planning on building maybe even a 36 spoke wheel but something that will be strong but overall weight is a big deal. I’m shooting for 27-28 lbs ideally. I currently do not do larger drops (1-2’ max so far as the terrain dictates) and am much more XC oriented… But you never know especially as I ride more… And again switch backs here in Park City so the smaller WB helps a lot here….
I have been reading a lot about the different bikes and frames and performance and from what I’ve read this Turner Sultan seems killer.. And again finally I am intrigued by the 27.5” idea too, I have this crazy idea to maybe try 27.5” on that frame (as it has the geometry I like a little more versus the 5” 26er bikes) and the correct wheelbase and everything… Then run a 26er fork like a 140mm Talas or something like that, as the 29ers are lacking in the fork department currently unless the 100mm Fox does pan out…
Thanks guys!
OK here is a short novel / all of my info:
Body/torso/frame size: I am tall with long legs and arms, short torso.. I actually ride a XL 21" typically not a XXL 23", because of the short torso. In a perfect world I'd like a 23" seattube with a 21" sized frame because I do have to have the seat tube out considerably. I prefer the smaller frames for increased maneuverability and shorter wheelbase.
Sherwood at Ventana offered to build one of these for only $150 more... And I have a deal with Ventana (cost) because of some tradeout I do with a good friend who is a Ventana dealer and my local bike shop.. Trying to get the same deal with Turner as I like the frame design a little more.
I would fit and do fine with a traditional 23" frame but I like the smaller frame because of maneuverability and wheel base. In fact this whole discussion for me started with a wheelbase discussion about 2-3 weeks ago. I have been planning to step up to full suspension for next year all this year, but didn't know how I was going to do it... But I started thinking about keeping the front end down on my relatively-small-for-me-but-the-largest-size-they-make 21" stumpjumper. Which again I love. It is super stable and nimble and climbs like a goat, great all mountain bike.
The Sultan has a 1" longer virtual top tube which I think is a plus. It has 73" seat tube and 71" steep head angle for more agile turning, which is also same as the Stump Jumper which is a plus. Dave Turner's philosphy for the 29er is long frame short stem to give a little more umph to the big tire turning around.. Then use wide bars (which I already use) for stability and leverage. Which if I really wanted to do I'd get the 23" frame and a 70mm stem but am going to go with the 21" frame (with the 25.5 top tube) and probably a 90mm stem (versus my current setup, which I like a lot, that is a 24.3 top tube and a 120mm stem). I really like the 73/71 setup and I like that you can get more All-Mountain-like handling with the 29ers with a steeper steerer tube because of the higher axles.
And it does all make sense and I do think a lot about it in off-road terms.. Why 35" tires wheel so much better than 33" tires on hard terrain (similar deal, I never ever imagined I would end up on 35s which seem HUGE to me even today sometimes). And gearing, and ability to roll over stuff...
--------
RE wheel base: It occurred to me how just 1” or maybe 2” more in the rear would help me a lot with keeping the front end down. I think if I were an inch or two shorter then it would be a lot easier. And I do a good job of keeping it down with technique. But with super steep technicals, because I basically have the seat post maxed out, I do spin out a little more. But it turns out the Ventanas and Turners both have 2” more wheelbase, in both the 26er 5” and 29er 4” models. About perfect I figure, ~45” versus what I am at now, 43”. So I literally think it would be perfect. I would actually probably get me the XXL frame actually because “technically” it would fit me better, but I am not a fan of the ginormous wheel base – plus the big wheels.. It would be great on flats but a nightmare on switchbacks which yes we have plenty of…
So I have actually been pretty active on MTB and if you want to check you can follow my transition into my rational of this particular bike and 29er. Here is a good one: teetering on the brink of XXL. And everyone is saying do with the larger frame. Which nice to get some nice reasonable comments from you guys to reassure where my mind is. I am about 70-80% sold on the 29ers, but again will hop on one maybe even tonight or this weekend sometime hopefully.
Terrain wise and drops and wheel strength: I am at 225ish up to 235-240 loaded. So definitely heavier. So yes wheel strength is a big deal, I was planning on building maybe even a 36 spoke wheel but something that will be strong but overall weight is a big deal. I’m shooting for 27-28 lbs ideally. I currently do not do larger drops (1-2’ max so far as the terrain dictates) and am much more XC oriented… But you never know especially as I ride more… And again switch backs here in Park City so the smaller WB helps a lot here….
I have been reading a lot about the different bikes and frames and performance and from what I’ve read this Turner Sultan seems killer.. And again finally I am intrigued by the 27.5” idea too, I have this crazy idea to maybe try 27.5” on that frame (as it has the geometry I like a little more versus the 5” 26er bikes) and the correct wheelbase and everything… Then run a 26er fork like a 140mm Talas or something like that, as the 29ers are lacking in the fork department currently unless the 100mm Fox does pan out…
Thanks guys!
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DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Other than making sure to have good, solid wheels built up, I think you'll find a 29er will be a pretty decent fit for you. I really do.
BTW, good blog about 26 vs 29 and just one guy's results:
http://teamhealthfx.com/blogs/dave_harris/archive/category/1032.aspx
BTW, good blog about 26 vs 29 and just one guy's results:
http://teamhealthfx.com/blogs/dave_harris/archive/category/1032.aspx
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Do you mean the Fox F29?dieselcruiserhead said:
View attachment 11144
BTW, you probably know Terry Holben, right? He's the guy who rode White Rim with me on his Dos Niner... He loves that bike, couldn't get him to stop talking about it.
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dieselcruiserhead
16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
No kidding... Yes Terry and I talk all the time, but truthfully I don't even think I know what he looks like.. Seems like a total chararacter... I'm sort of his go to FAQ on many things FJ55 and diesel even though 98% of the time he could/should/does figure everything out on his own... Anyway, yes the F29.. Looks great but as its a new shock see how it pans out.. But it is a Fox so I imagine probably fine. Will also hopefully let costs go down and availability up over time as there are some weird distribution issues with it right now for a year or so I was told...
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Fox is a very conservative company, the shock is probably just a fine product. I've had three Fox forks and despite about 6 years spanning their manufacture, the changes are incremental and pretty obviously linear. They are expensive, though, that much is for sure. But SoCal made, awesome support, well constructed. The Float RLC100 on my hardtail is from 2002 and it's been PUSH'd, but still going strong. If it was a 120mm travel, it would be on the Blur...dieselcruiserhead said:
Funrover
Expedition Leader
The only problems I have with 29's!!
Finding tires/tubes ( however they are becoming more popular so that won't be a problem for long)
The type of rding I do a lot of, drops, big rovks. hops, etc - I don't think they have a rim strong enough yet...that and I am 270 lbs!
I rode one, while I did find it to be a very nice bike, it is not for me!! I will stick to my 26" as they develop a little more! I do see potential in the future though!
Finding tires/tubes ( however they are becoming more popular so that won't be a problem for long)
The type of rding I do a lot of, drops, big rovks. hops, etc - I don't think they have a rim strong enough yet...that and I am 270 lbs!
I rode one, while I did find it to be a very nice bike, it is not for me!! I will stick to my 26" as they develop a little more! I do see potential in the future though!
MountainBiker
Experience Seeker
I think you mean Central California in Watsonville. Only the Baja truck and buggy suspension stuff is made in SoCal AFAIK.DaveInDenver said:
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
So it is, that Watsonville is near SF. Never looked it up until you mentioned it, just always assumed it was somewhere near LA or somethin'.MountainBiker said:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...8,-121.665344&spn=0.712053,1.149445&z=10&om=1
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
bigreen505 said:
The 69ers are out, but not all too common. The theory is sound. The front wheel on a 29er feels heavy because of the slightly longer wheel base. Using a smaller rear wheel allows the stays to be snugged up, putting the rear wheel under your booty. That in turn makes the front wheel easier to lift. Probably rides great. Necessary? Maybe not. Cannondale did the same thing in the mid 80s with the Beast of the East with 24 and 26 inch wheels.
With regard to wheel strength - There are far, far, far more guys that ride poorly than there are weak wheels. When I managed a shop (for 15 years) guys would come in with a ruined hoop and say, "I ride hard...blah, blah, blah." My retort to myself, "you ride poorly." I ride with a dude that is 200lbs of single track silk. He hits the same stuff everyone else does and just as fast, but his bike is alway primo. I'm the same way, but probably make more mistakes. Even so, my wheel failures (2 in 22 years) are within reason.
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
I put them on my road bikes early last season. I dig'em. They don't shift poorly, but not real awesome. It took a few rides to get used to them. There's not much in terms of a negative effect, but the gains are minor as well. I have pretty solid pedal technique, compliments of many years of good coaching. I find I spin them smoothly but some find them a little choppy. Good for low rpm, high leverage strokes like cresting hills, exiting corners, etc. On my SS they RULE! They're worth a try.bigreen505 said:
They really are nothing like Bio-Pace. That stuff sucked.
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I did my first Mt Bike race in 1985 back in the days when I said that it was just a fad. I've had my Fisher Mt Tam hard tail since 2002 and I've had a Fisher 293 since 2005.
last Thurs I did ride the New Fishers w/ the HiFI geometery. One was a Hifi deluxe 26 inch and one was a HiFi Deluxxe 29er, We did a bunch of switching back and forth on the Tinton Trail. The 29er felt exactly like my old 293 until the switchbacks then it tracked like a short bike, and now I want one. The 26 was super tight and great climbing but it just confirmed that I will never go back to 26 inch wheels. I had to regear my 29ers w/raceface crank and 20tooth granny. (maybe old age?). The HiFi 29 seemed to be geared right stock and I would leave the gearing alone. I would recommend that you ride a 29 for a while. They do have a different feel. - Brad
last Thurs I did ride the New Fishers w/ the HiFI geometery. One was a Hifi deluxe 26 inch and one was a HiFi Deluxxe 29er, We did a bunch of switching back and forth on the Tinton Trail. The 29er felt exactly like my old 293 until the switchbacks then it tracked like a short bike, and now I want one. The 26 was super tight and great climbing but it just confirmed that I will never go back to 26 inch wheels. I had to regear my 29ers w/raceface crank and 20tooth granny. (maybe old age?). The HiFi 29 seemed to be geared right stock and I would leave the gearing alone. I would recommend that you ride a 29 for a while. They do have a different feel. - Brad
dieselcruiserhead
16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
I had a fun night, took out the demo 29er single speed... Gary Fisher Hardtail, nice Reba air shock, large frame so too small for me and a little awkward feeling. Was also my first foray into SS too so tough to be scientific about it because of so many variables. Had to have the super long seat tube extended way out to fit me. And right when I got the groove of things about 50 minutes out towards some unreal local terrain I was really looking forward to, pop, and I snapped the chain. Did some dinking around but too fried to repair. Well maintained bike and they let me take it out for free so I volunteered to pony up for a chain for the bike though it may have been toast beforehand, which the shop appreciated (and I appreciate them). Or maybe the 225 lb 37" inseam of me was too much stress, I dunno. I was working the bike very very hard, really pressing down against it to keep my momentum on the climbs but it was a nice feeling... Gearing was 32 front 20 rear with the 29er, probably too fast IMO, I feel like even one tooth slower might have been better climbing gear but again I am a novice SSer... I felt like this was the fastest possible gear that is still ridable on trails for this bike... So spent a lot of time up as to be expected but felt like I did pretty well considering...
I really see why 29er in single speed is popular, when I was up, in many cases was leaning way forward.. ...things that would spin out my stumpjumper easily; and still had killer traction.. There was really one section of loose pebbles on the ride that was the only place that gave me a little trouble. And I didn't have to pick my lines too carefully over the light loose stuff on the churning uphills, just rolled over everything whereas if I were geared this same way (really fast IMO as said above) in 26er, I feel that I would have spun out easily... I enjoy picking my lines on the flats and downhills but sometimes when going uphill I sort of space out and focus on the climb rather than the rocks and this was nice, and normally I get bounced around a lot on the 26er...
Anyway, RE the wheels specifically, I felt like they definitely have their merits and they really do cruise over everything with ease. You can definitely feel the gyroscope of the wheels particularly when turning. I didn't feel that it was hard to move them around at all, just 'slightly different feeling' and probably something that would wear off quickly.. They didn't feel too big under me at all... And over rocky terrain they were pretty solid and I really did like the increased speed and smoothness on the flats and light descents. With this bike I was able to pick very good and smooth lines and really felt good. Was not hard to maneuver at all. Even getting little air here and there and they really felt solid even in this department... It even felt almost a little "plush" considering the rigid aluminum hardtail frame of the Fisher, and I was not expecting this. Getting the bike through tight areas was not too hard either but I think I had a similar wheelbase to what I already have with this large frame. I zipped around quite a few tight switchbacks with no issues at all...
My complaint as can be expected is that yes the wheels felt really sloppy laterally, not a happy camper at all in that department. I was zipping back and forth almost like a skier bouncing, on a pavement downhill on the way home and you could really feel it shifting laterally underneath... I do this with my 26er all the time and never felt the feeling of sloppiness in the wheels. In this department, they really did feel rinky-dink. But I also speculate this was the wheel build. I didn't closely inspect the wheel setup specifically other than some sort of Bontrager rims, possibly spokes too loose I dunno, and the spoke setup was (I forget the term) not direct but overlapping... And again felt "loose." I got sort of a little angry when I returned the bike the tech was looking at me like I was crazy when I said the wheels didn't feel stiff laterally like I was from Mars..
But anyway going to take it out again hopefully this weekend or next week some time and keep on playing.. There are some other local guys that are also down at 24 hours this weekend also (a shop in Provo run by a guy named Racer, and they all tall and swear by 29ers) and he has some full suspension rigs and geared rigs in my size that I am eager to try out...
Then on the way back from the LBS I pedaled my old bike home and of course it felt just super solid and the more rigid wheels felt great. And they held speed and felt so solid, even on a inexpensive build, as I was hopping over curbs and such. Did feel nice to be back on my bike... But again, so many variables particularly the ill-fitting frame... So in that regard I also look forward to riding a nicely built 29er rather than a rental bike so am going to keep on truckin and hopefully come to a consensus...
:beer:
I really see why 29er in single speed is popular, when I was up, in many cases was leaning way forward.. ...things that would spin out my stumpjumper easily; and still had killer traction.. There was really one section of loose pebbles on the ride that was the only place that gave me a little trouble. And I didn't have to pick my lines too carefully over the light loose stuff on the churning uphills, just rolled over everything whereas if I were geared this same way (really fast IMO as said above) in 26er, I feel that I would have spun out easily... I enjoy picking my lines on the flats and downhills but sometimes when going uphill I sort of space out and focus on the climb rather than the rocks and this was nice, and normally I get bounced around a lot on the 26er...
Anyway, RE the wheels specifically, I felt like they definitely have their merits and they really do cruise over everything with ease. You can definitely feel the gyroscope of the wheels particularly when turning. I didn't feel that it was hard to move them around at all, just 'slightly different feeling' and probably something that would wear off quickly.. They didn't feel too big under me at all... And over rocky terrain they were pretty solid and I really did like the increased speed and smoothness on the flats and light descents. With this bike I was able to pick very good and smooth lines and really felt good. Was not hard to maneuver at all. Even getting little air here and there and they really felt solid even in this department... It even felt almost a little "plush" considering the rigid aluminum hardtail frame of the Fisher, and I was not expecting this. Getting the bike through tight areas was not too hard either but I think I had a similar wheelbase to what I already have with this large frame. I zipped around quite a few tight switchbacks with no issues at all...
My complaint as can be expected is that yes the wheels felt really sloppy laterally, not a happy camper at all in that department. I was zipping back and forth almost like a skier bouncing, on a pavement downhill on the way home and you could really feel it shifting laterally underneath... I do this with my 26er all the time and never felt the feeling of sloppiness in the wheels. In this department, they really did feel rinky-dink. But I also speculate this was the wheel build. I didn't closely inspect the wheel setup specifically other than some sort of Bontrager rims, possibly spokes too loose I dunno, and the spoke setup was (I forget the term) not direct but overlapping... And again felt "loose." I got sort of a little angry when I returned the bike the tech was looking at me like I was crazy when I said the wheels didn't feel stiff laterally like I was from Mars..
But anyway going to take it out again hopefully this weekend or next week some time and keep on playing.. There are some other local guys that are also down at 24 hours this weekend also (a shop in Provo run by a guy named Racer, and they all tall and swear by 29ers) and he has some full suspension rigs and geared rigs in my size that I am eager to try out...
Then on the way back from the LBS I pedaled my old bike home and of course it felt just super solid and the more rigid wheels felt great. And they held speed and felt so solid, even on a inexpensive build, as I was hopping over curbs and such. Did feel nice to be back on my bike... But again, so many variables particularly the ill-fitting frame... So in that regard I also look forward to riding a nicely built 29er rather than a rental bike so am going to keep on truckin and hopefully come to a consensus...
:beer:
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I guess I have never felt a problem with the lateral stiffness on any of my wheel sets. I have a set of radial laced road wheels with cycl cross tires on my hard tail right now. I don't push them them very hard but I haven't felt them give. I am no light weight anymore either at 6' and 210. Having a set of road wheels on them makes a fun bike.
When I first got my full suspension I thought it had a lowered bottom bracket because I was hitting the pedals in a lot places that I hadn't had a problem before. I then realizied that I hadn't been able to pedal those sections before because they were too rough.
When I first got my full suspension I thought it had a lowered bottom bracket because I was hitting the pedals in a lot places that I hadn't had a problem before. I then realizied that I hadn't been able to pedal those sections before because they were too rough.