Mud is pollution

Rando

Explorer
I spend time on glaciers in Antarctica, in research aircraft flying through snow storms and the like.

In my time in atmospheric science, I have never any of the the things you mention below. Can you give some specific examples?

Secondly when I say 'publication' I am not talking about books and newspapers, but peer reviewed scientific journals. And yes I do believe the majority of what I read in scientific journals, as it is painstakingly referenced, reviewed and supported.

So I am probably wrong here but you spend a ton of time behind a big telescope.
When I talk about the "So called scientists" I am referring to the scientists that fit into this realm
Three forms of outright scientific dishonesty with regard to observation:

(1) Trimming: the smoothing of irregularities to make the data look extremely accurate and precise.

(2) Cooking: retaining only those results that fit the theory while discarding others that do not.

(3) Forging: inventing some or all of the research data that are reported, and even reporting experiments or procedures to obtain those data that were never performed.

This happens a lot specially with sponsored scientists. also you mention something as being accepted if it is published... I suppose you believe everything that is said in the newspapers to huh?

Now I do not think I ever said I do not believe that the fish or any population was not effected by excessive silt or destruction of habitat. I thought I covered that when this thread was first started. What I am saying is finding adequate non bias, not for profit PEOPLE to do the testing is far and few in between.
 

flywgn

Explorer
So I am probably wrong here but you spend a ton of time behind a big telescope.
When I talk about the "So called scientists" I am referring to the scientists that fit into this realm
Three forms of outright scientific dishonesty [bold emphasis mine] with regard to observation:

(1) Trimming: the smoothing of irregularities to make the data look extremely accurate and precise.

(2) Cooking: retaining only those results that fit the theory while discarding others that do not.

(3) Forging: inventing some or all of the research data that are reported, and even reporting experiments or procedures to obtain those data that were never performed.

This happens a lot specially with sponsored scientists. also you mention something as being accepted if it is published... I suppose you believe everything that is said in the newspapers to huh?

Now I do not think I ever said I do not believe that the fish or any population was not effected by excessive silt or destruction of habitat. I thought I covered that when this thread was first started. What I am saying is finding adequate non bias, not for profit PEOPLE to do the testing is far and few in between.

So, I guess cutting and pasting from another source...and with absolutely no changes I notice...and making it look like your own thought and comment is all right.

NOTE from catchpenny.org :

"Charles Babbage (1792-1871), professor of mathematics at Cambridge University, described three forms of outright scientific dishonesty with regard to observation:
(1) Trimming: the smoothing of irregularities to make the data look extremely accurate and precise.
(2) Cooking: retaining only those results that fit the theory while discarding others that do not.
(3) Forging: inventing some or all of the research data that are reported, and even reporting experiments or procedures to obtain those data that were never performed."

Allen R.
 

paulj

Expedition Leader
Nature put the mud into the stream, through rain, errosion... Yes, man's actions may be the precursor, here cutting in a road, but the mud isn't the result of any invented human process and it isn't in itself harmful. So regulate the human invented proccess - cutting in the road, not the mud. That may mean in this example regulation requiring sediment catch ponds or some other means of mitigating the effects of human actions.

What exactly do you mean by 'regulate the mud'? How is that different from regulating human activities that generate it in harmful quantities and ecologically sensitive places?

Back in the California gold rush days, hydraulic mining released tons of sediment that flooded onto farm lands in the Central Valley. Land owners pushed through legislation that virtually banned that type of mining, the first of many environmental laws in the state.

The problem was sediment that harmed other humans. The solution was to regulate the human activity that generated it. The fact that a natural process, the flow of rivers and gravity, transported the sediement didn't matter.
 

john101477

Photographer in the Wild
So, I guess cutting and pasting from another source...and with absolutely no changes I notice...and making it look like your own thought and comment is all right.

NOTE from catchpenny.org :

"Charles Babbage (1792-1871), professor of mathematics at Cambridge University, described three forms of outright scientific dishonesty with regard to observation:
(1) Trimming: the smoothing of irregularities to make the data look extremely accurate and precise.
(2) Cooking: retaining only those results that fit the theory while discarding others that do not.
(3) Forging: inventing some or all of the research data that are reported, and even reporting experiments or procedures to obtain those data that were never performed."

Allen R.

Sorry forgot the quote. but yeah thats the general idea and it does happen regardless of how much people would like it not to happen.
 

JPK

Explorer
I agree with you, regulate the "human invented process" which caused the issue, in your example the hydraulic mining.

Why is it different? Because you cannot regulate a substance, only human processes. You cannot regulate a natural occurence, like rain or a volcanic erruption, only a human process.

Why are the semantics important? For a clear example CO2, when the gov't moves to regulate CO2 it moves in the direction of regulating the emmission of a human being and in the direction of regulating the existence of a human being. The US EPA attempts declare CO2 a pollutant and to regulate CO2 should be a warning and an affront to every American. If the gov't proposes to regulate how a power plant is built to manage its emmissions, or how a car is built, a human invented process, that is something worthy of debate, but the gov't goes way too far when it tries to directly regulate the natural result of human breath.

JPK
 

paulj

Expedition Leader
These bad activities, trimming, cooking, forging, should not be confused with normal scientific data handling. Data has to be examined for errors, which often show up as outliers. Equipment can break down, or get of out adjustment. Extraneous events, separate from the phenomena being studied, can affect measurements. Data is averaged, statistical distributions calculated, long term trends extracted via smoothing, etc.

A good scientific paper is clear about how the data is processed, what are the sources of uncertainties, and strength or tentativeness of conclusions. However those details seldom appear in summaries, press releases, and popular articles. Absence of these details in the latter does not mean they are missing in the sources.

There's another dishonest way of treating data - cherry picking. That is a common tactic used by people who want to refute scientific studies that they dislike.
 

Rando

Explorer
This is a classic example of a "slippery slope" argument. No one is claiming that EPA is going to regulate human breath.

As it is at the moment, the EPA regulates all sorts of compounds e.g. NOx, Hg, CFCs etc. What this really means is that the EPA regulates the emissions of the substances caused by certain processes not the substances themselves. To give a simple example of this, power plant emissions of NOx are regulated, however emissions of NOx from your camp fire or camp stove are not.

By the same token EPA already regulates several substances that are emitted by humans, such as ammonia and carbon monoxide.

Finally to put a rest to this somewhat silly argument, human respiration is not a net source of carbon to the atmosphere, all the CO2 we exhale comes from the plants we eat or the plants that our steaks ate. In order to feed ourselves we will always raise crops, which will remove the same amount of CO2 from the atmosphere. We are part of the carbon cycle but not a bet source of CO2.

I agree with you, regulate the "human invented process" which caused the issue, in your example the hydraulic mining.

Why is it different? Because you cannot regulate a substance, only human processes. You cannot regulate a natural occurence, like rain or a volcanic erruption, only a human process.

Why are the semantics important? For a clear example CO2, when the gov't moves to regulate CO2 it moves in the direction of regulating the emmission of a human being and in the direction of regulating the existence of a human being. The US EPA attempts declare CO2 a pollutant and to regulate CO2 should be a warning and an affront to every American. If the gov't proposes to regulate how a power plant is built to manage its emmissions, or how a car is built, a human invented process, that is something worthy of debate, but the gov't goes way too far when it tries to directly regulate the natural result of human breath.

JPK
 

john101477

Photographer in the Wild
Make sure I quote this properly so i do not get flamed for not quoting lol

Just on the Global Warming issue :
from http://stats.org/stories/2008/global_warming_survey_apr23_08.html

Are climate scientists being pressured to deny or advance global warming?
Five percent of climate scientists say they have been pressured by public officials or government agencies to “deny, minimize or discount evidence of human-induced global warming,” Three percent say they have been pressured by funders, and two percent perceived pressure from supervisors at work.

Three percent report that they were pressured by public officials or government agencies to “embellish, play up or overstate” evidence of global warming: Two percent report such pressure from funders, and two percent from supervisors.

There are many forms of bad science and the scientists that caused the problems in the first place.
http://www.depletedcranium.com/shame/
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/example_of_bad_science_news_de.php
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/341421_research28.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

try looking up Larry Summers or the really confused Steven E Jones

Rando dude, i am seriously not singling you out. I do believe there are plenty of notable scientists who do incredible work. I do have a hard time with earth science because it is so broad a topic. thats the only reason a I asked your specific field of interest. Not pointing fingers

I also believe there are scientists that push their theory before appropriate testing or are drawn in by greed or the desire to be right. Try to think of it from my point of view if there are environmental extremist on both sides, there are bound to be a few of those that are also scientists. They have a specific belief pattern and will go to great lengths to prove it, including maybe hedging the truth a little. In that same manner, a scientist doing paid research for aspirin might hedge the ability of the Brand name for a cpl hundred grand in a little white lie.
You see these type of things a lot with dietary supplements. Hey the scientist says it will make you loose weight, a womans hair will become silky smooth and a mans... so it must be true.
 

Rando

Explorer
Earth science is a broad field, just as chemistry, physics and medicine are broad fields - I am assuming you don't have a hard time with these fields. I could equally well identify myself as a chemist as earth scientist.

You do give some interesting examples below, but from the majority of the cases (except for the AIDS researcher) they all seem to reach the same set of conclusions which I broadly agree with:
- Scientists are pressured by politics/administration in a small fraction of cases. However on averaged they are pressured to suppress their findings, not to overstate them (from the stats.org site) and this makes no claim that they actually do this.
- The media and non-scientists as a whole do a bad job of conveying science to the public. (from depleted cranium examples on climate change, vaccines, alternative medicine etc)

I think possibly more valid examples of what one call 'bad science' are things that while they appear to be scientific, are nothing of the sort. Some examples would include:
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/ a blog sponsored by the Western Fuels Association to spread disinformation.
http://www.generationrescue.org/ Jenny Mcarthys website on the link between autism and vaccines.
The best way to protect against information like this is to go directly to the horses mouth and read the scientific papers. Or at the very least consult organizations like the American Geophysical Union, which represents the views of 10's of thousands of scientists - that way the .1% don't really matter.

That being said, if you actually go to the scientific literature there are very very few cases of 'bad science', and when they are cases they are almost always caught and exposed by other scientists in scientific literature eg:
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452

I guess my overall point would be to claim that we should ignore 99.9% of the science about a topic because 0.1% may have issues is to throw the baby out with the bath water.


Make sure I quote this properly so i do not get flamed for not quoting lol

Just on the Global Warming issue :
from http://stats.org/stories/2008/global_warming_survey_apr23_08.html



There are many forms of bad science and the scientists that caused the problems in the first place.
http://www.depletedcranium.com/shame/
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/example_of_bad_science_news_de.php
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/341421_research28.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

try looking up Larry Summers or the really confused Steven E Jones

Rando dude, i am seriously not singling you out. I do believe there are plenty of notable scientists who do incredible work. I do have a hard time with earth science because it is so broad a topic. thats the only reason a I asked your specific field of interest. Not pointing fingers

I also believe there are scientists that push their theory before appropriate testing or are drawn in by greed or the desire to be right. Try to think of it from my point of view if there are environmental extremist on both sides, there are bound to be a few of those that are also scientists. They have a specific belief pattern and will go to great lengths to prove it, including maybe hedging the truth a little. In that same manner, a scientist doing paid research for aspirin might hedge the ability of the Brand name for a cpl hundred grand in a little white lie.
You see these type of things a lot with dietary supplements. Hey the scientist says it will make you loose weight, a womans hair will become silky smooth and a mans... so it must be true.
 

constructeur

Adventurer
Mud is as much polution as carbon dioxide, which is to say it isn't pollution. But that doesn't mean that it can be utterly ignored either, where carbon dioxide ought to be, or that is my current read of the actual science.

Mud is pollution when it's introduced by us and affects the flora and fauna and here's why:
A winter time flood is a natural 'pulse' event, and differs from silt that is introduced 8+ hours a day (usually with fuel, oil, and grease also in it), 5-6 days a week for months at a time by some access roads.

We're not talking a couple of mud puddles on your rural driveway here guys. Hundreds of dirt roads throughout the PNW forests driven on 5-6 days a week by thousands of log trucks, skid steers, etc. . The fish that have been swimming in our rivers for thousands of years with many runs down to a functional extinction within a mere 200 years, less in most areas.
One could argue that this is only a tiny piece of the puzzle, fine, but it's still a part we can no longer afford to ignore. Maybe I'm being hardline, but I look back at how we've gotten to our resource needs collectively and all I see is take, take, take. One could also call me selfish as I simply want to see wild places and resources around for both my and your family in the future.


Sustainable use requires reasonable regulation, including perhaps reducing silt deposits in spawning rivers.
I recon that's partly what this ruling is shooting for.


But there is hope, for example severly depleted rockfish (striped bass) stocks blosomed after a five year closure in the Chesapeake Bay; ridiculously depleted stocks of mullet, redfish, kingfish (king mackerel) rebounded after Florida's constiitutional amendment banning most net fishing; Atlantic bight and Florida Straight swordfish stock bloomed with a commercial fishing closure....

It's a bit of a different battle out here in the PNW as the fish you've listed spawn on the shore or are Pelagic and spawn in the open ocean. Salmon, steelhead, and other anadromous trouts are umbrella species that use quite a wide variety of habitat during their lifespans.
One of the reasons that steelhead are hit the hardest is because they incubate(smolt) in the river for up to 2 years before heading to sea where as most salmon are hatched and out in 30-90 days iirc. Your east coast salmonids are different than our PNW fishes and can spawn multiple times, so I'm sure in parts of the NE there are similar scenarious playing out.

Stopping FN netting is, for the most part, impossible due to the Boldt decision: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Washington

http://www.kohary.com/env/bill_020799.html

Even today, on MD's Eastern Shore I encounter commercial fishermen and crabbers who voice the opinion that they will take what they can, be damned the regulations, because if they don't take what they can someone else will....
JPK
Not to detract from the mud issue any furthur but you should check this out: http://www.examiner.com/fish-and-wi...ousands-more-striped-bass-off-the-outer-banks
 

john101477

Photographer in the Wild
I guess my overall point would be to claim that we should ignore 99.9% of the science about a topic because 0.1% may have issues is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

First off sounds like a possibly exciting career you have. would love to hear more about what you do in your field of study.

I feel we are once again in a witch hunt here and once again someone is going to the extremes of what is said. My basic idea with any topic is to find out why that .01% is different than that 99.99% that proves one way or the other.

I suppose that part of the problem from an average persons view is the direction it is given from. That the information we finally see has already been sliced up and and glued back together by the person that is finally giving the info. (hence why I believe sponsored science is bad)

As is quoted in my signature, Few men have the virtue to withstand the highest bidder. So what happens when 2 scientists from two sides of the coin come up with different answers? Such as the effects of global warming and the green house effect? i suppose we wait and see who was right lol.
 

john101477

Photographer in the Wild
Stopping FN netting is, for the most part, impossible due to the Boldt decision: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Washington

Read that a little closer

The court also looked at the minutes of the treaty negotiations to interpret the meaning of the treaty language—"in common with"—as the United States described it to the Tribes, holding that the United States intended for there to be an equal sharing of the fish resource between the Tribes and the settlers. As the court stated:
By dictionary definition and as intended and used in the Indian treaties and in this decision, 'in common with' means sharing equally the opportunity to take fish . . . therefore, non-treaty fishermen shall have the opportunity to take up to 50% of the harvestable number of fish . . . and treaty right fishermen shall have the opportunity to take up to the same percentage.

Now if non FN can not harvest 50% why should a FN? and who decides what is harvestable? Yes I might be stretching a little here but I am remembering the last time I was on the Klamith with the FN's sitting right at the mouth of the river catching fish almost by the truck load but a normal fisherman is not even aloud to fish that section at all much less commercial fish it
 

Rando

Explorer
I guess I would ask what you mean by sponsored science? Is that science sponsored by industry? In which case I would tend to agree with you. However when it comes to environmental/earth science or what ever you would like to call it research, very little is sponsored by industry, it is largely government funded both in the US and overseas.

As for the 2 scientists with two studies giving different results - I agree you would have to wait for further evidence. However I don't think climate change/global warming is a good example of this. In this case it is 1000 studies point to one conclusion, 1 doesn't.

PS I do like my career, it is long hours and not a lot of money for the education and amount of work, but it is worth it for the field work and satisfaction!

First off sounds like a possibly exciting career you have. would love to hear more about what you do in your field of study.

I feel we are once again in a witch hunt here and once again someone is going to the extremes of what is said. My basic idea with any topic is to find out why that .01% is different than that 99.99% that proves one way or the other.

I suppose that part of the problem from an average persons view is the direction it is given from. That the information we finally see has already been sliced up and and glued back together by the person that is finally giving the info. (hence why I believe sponsored science is bad)

As is quoted in my signature, Few men have the virtue to withstand the highest bidder. So what happens when 2 scientists from two sides of the coin come up with different answers? Such as the effects of global warming and the green house effect? i suppose we wait and see who was right lol.
 

JPK

Explorer
This is a classic example of a "slippery slope" argument. No one is claiming that EPA is going to regulate human breath.

As it is at the moment, the EPA regulates all sorts of compounds e.g. NOx, Hg, CFCs etc. What this really means is that the EPA regulates the emissions of the substances caused by certain processes not the substances themselves. To give a simple example of this, power plant emissions of NOx are regulated, however emissions of NOx from your camp fire or camp stove are not.

By the same token EPA already regulates several substances that are emitted by humans, such as ammonia and carbon monoxide.

Finally to put a rest to this somewhat silly argument, human respiration is not a net source of carbon to the atmosphere, all the CO2 we exhale comes from the plants we eat or the plants that our steaks ate. In order to feed ourselves we will always raise crops, which will remove the same amount of CO2 from the atmosphere. We are part of the carbon cycle but not a bet source of CO2.

Re your last paragraph, so the same with coal. Or oil. The emissions of either are the result of plants or dead animals.... No net change over history.

Elements on earth are a zero sum game, what was here essentially stays here, what results from combining elements, whether natural or man caused, doesn't change what the earth started with - so far as we know.

As far as CFC's, well the popular opinion is one thing and the reality perhaps another. Want to cut down on carbon and compound, NOx, S emmissions from powerplants? Bring back CFC's, they are the most efficient heat transfer medium discovered so far. Have your "Food Safety" refrigeration/freezing and have it with less fuel burned, by far, by having your refrigerant a CFC banned or regulated about out of existence in the US compound. Ditto A/C. Want a more energy efficient building?
Use CFC refrigerants. The parodox of gov't regulation. "It must be more efficient... but you can't use the most efficient compounds..."

Yes, we will always raise crops, but for what purpose? You think food price increases in the last few years are the result of of increased demand? BS. They result from centralist planning which promotes the substitution of one carbon source for another. Abscent reguation of CO2, or anti-regulation subsidization of other sources of CO2, and the corn/sugar beet/ sugar cane, etc, fuel market wouldn't exist, and it shouldn't. Hell, even you ought to acknowledge that it is more damaging than fossil fuels.

Yes, the EPA regulates some emmissions from human invented proccesses. But it shouldn't. It should regulate the proccesses instead. It does that as well, btw. As far as NOx, here in the Eastern US there have been EPA, or EPA sponsored, (somewhat successful) attempts to regulate individual NOx emmissions from BBQ's, campfires and wood fires in homes. There have also been attempts to regulate CO2 and other emmissions on the home front from lawn mowers to BBQ's to wood fires as well. No comfort from gov't strangulation there, it isn't limited to the distant "corporation." Especially when the regulation of the power plant building or operation is an alternative. And the EPA is active there, so why with the naturally occurring compounds (as on the home front) as well?

The EPA wants to regulate CO2, therefore it will regulate human breath, whether it publishes this or even whether it currently intends to or not. This issue, despite your denial, is not in doubt, merely the timing.

Take a look at leftist/liberal/socialist writings regarding human life, it will, or should be, quite an awakening.

As for the "classic example" of a "slippery slope" argument, tell me why would the EPA even approach the slippery slope of regulating naturally occuring substances when that alternative of regulating human behavior, aka "human invented proccesses," has a foundation for us Americans as old as English Common Law? (About 400-500yrs.) And even while the gov't regulates proccesses? The answer lies, or may lay, in the greater desire of the EPA and its bretheren to regulate the life and even the being of individual humans. Again, read the leftist/socialist/liberal works, more than an handful all but demand regulating human existence. The slippery slope is real, and easily, readly avoidable.

I don't know or care how old you are, but the dicussion, open or otherwise, of Chineese food shortages began when I was a child, but stopped in favor of political correctness some time ago. Chineese food issues, Chineese population issues... Never in the decades of these dicussions did the idea or the thought emerge that a nation would attempt to prohibit its population from reproducing beyond a less than replacement rate, or even attempt to prohibit its population from growth as the population saw fit to attempt. How far is this from regulating the existence of a human being? Not far, too f'in close. What distinguishes our current gov't from the central planners in China? Not F'in much. What distinguishes the too much CO2 argument with the not enough home grown food issue? Not enough!

BTW, "controlled substance" laws do not actually regulate any substance, only human behavior and invented proccesses. For example, it is illegal to possess, make or distribute, say, cocaine. The cocaine isn't really regulated or controlled, only human proccesses or activity, as it should be. And cocaine, or heroin, or most controlled substances are man made and not naturally ocurring. But with regard to even those substances which are naturally ocurring, like pot, the laws actually regulate human behavior, not the substance, as it should be.

On topic, the regulation of proccesses which result, or may result, in the harmful siltation of salmon streams is a discussion worthy of debate and perhaps, even probably, resolution. Unlike the regulation of mud. But again, don't overlook a known cause of stock declines in similar fisheries, overfishing, as the root problem, as the main cause of the issue of depleted salmon stocks. Another call for regulation of human invented proccesses.

JPK
 
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JPK

Explorer
"However I don't think climate change/global warming is a good example of this. In this case it is 1000 studies point to one conclusion, 1 doesn't."

You cannot now be serious about this statement, eh?

Ignoring the consequences of swimming upstream against a PC wave, the foundation "science" has been revealed to have been altered to the extent that "every" subsequent or follow on study is beyond tainted.

Moreover, the original data was destroyed to avoid comparison with the altered data.

Even beyond so called scientists' manipulations, no one has explained the earth's natural, historical fluctuations... with data which isn't contradictory.

Now move on to the mutation of the terminology from "global warming" - all but disproved, or at least severly discreditted - to "climate change"... From a hypothesis - the earth is warming due to human invented proccesses - which might possibly be eventually proved correct or incorrect to an interesting but empty political/motivational catch all which is nothing but propaganda... It gets hot... Climate Change! It gets cold...Climate Change! It rains... Climate Change! It doesn't rain... Climate Change!

I'm old enough to recall the dire warnings of other politically motivated so called scientist regarding the coming ice age, which according to those propheses should be here about... now! "There are ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production — with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now." Sound familiar? Peter Gwynne, 1975.

JPK
 
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