Multi-mount winch setup

[Lance990]

I am probably going to catch a lot of grief for this but I plan to add a winch to my rig. The main reason I am choosing the following set up is because I only have one way to carry a spare tire. Currently, I have a Curt front mounted hitch on my F350 that is rated for a 9,000 lb straight pull. I added the front hitch to be able to carry 2 bicycles on my bike rack. This works great in warmer weather and allows me and the DW to get around on bikes wherever we camp. Since then, I purchased a spare tire mount that fits the receiver and I have mounted my spare up front since the spare will not fit under the bed of the truck due to the Class V receiver hitch I have installed in the rear. Having a spare is very important when I travel and the current set up solves that problem.

I am looking to purchase a 12,000 lbs winch that will fit a winch cradle that will fit up front (or in the rear) in the receiver(s). I REALLY want to maintain the ability to carry the spare up front when I travel. I can either move the spare to the rear when the camper is loaded (using a hitch extension that I have to clear the camper overhang) or mount the bike rack in the rear receiver. If I need the winch in either the front or back, I can remove whatever is in the receiver temporarily to mount the winch. To me, this will provide the most flexibility for my set up.

Now, here's the problem: With my truck camper loaded in the bed, my TC and truck weighs exactly 10,000 lbs. If I get stuck somewhere and need to winch out, the front receiver is not rated to pull all of that weight. The rear class V receiver is rated for 12,000 lbs so it would be sufficient to handle the 10k lbs of the truck and camper. However, if the truck camper is loaded, I will have to mount the winch into the hitch extension and pull from there due to the overhang. Ideally, I would have a much bigger winch in the 15-16k lbs range to pull on my rig but any winch I purchase with that capacity will have to be permanently mounted to the frame in order to be effective. I have yet to find a permanently mounted winch set up that will provide a 2 inch receiver AND a winch at the same time.

So, it seems that I would be risking pulling the front receiver off the truck given the 9,000 lbs front hitch rating and 10,000 lbs TC and truck. Add in any slope or ground resistance and the force needed to pull my rig could easily exceed the 12,000 lb winch capacity. I could always rig a double line pull (if possible) to reduce the force needed from the winch to move the truck and TC and I might get by with only a 12,000 lb winch. However, given the the rule of winch capacity (1.5 times the weight of the vehicle), I still come up short. I could always risk not having enough winch for both the truck and TC combined and still have plenty of winch capacity to get the truck itself out of a situation or help someone else out of a zero traction situation. By avoiding low traction situations, even with the winch, I may never have to use the winch to recover my rig but I like having it as an option, just in case...

My F350 has 4.10 gears with factory LSD and it has handled many low traction conditions very well with the TC loaded. I don't do any serious off-roading in my beast of a rig but I do like to get off the road and camp. I have brand new Goodyear Duratracs on all axles and they work great. My truck is 4x2 but the duallys and the weight of the camper really drive my rig forward in snow and the occasional mud hole. I intend to do some winter camping this year and having the winch as a part of my rig would help me sleep better at night. A winch is not a replacement for common sense, but it could easily pay for itself if I ever get my rig stuck. My truck is daily driver so running a locker in the rear is out of the question unless it is an ARB air locker. The LSD works great for most situations but my desire for remote camping spots could lure me into areas that might cause me problems. I fully understand the limitations of my rig but not having 4WD is what is prompted me to start thinking about a winch.

Any suggestions or advice on what I plan to do? Are there any alternatives that I should be thinking about? I readily admit that a 12k lb winch on a 9k lb receiver is not ideal and I risk tearing up the front end of my truck (the hitch wraps around the front stabilizer bar). But before you tell me I need a 4WD truck and a lighter camper, neither of those are an option. My truck is exactly the truck I want and need and downsizing on the camper would be silly. Yes, I can continue to avoid low traction situations and do without a winch, but I am trying to figure out how to make a winch work with my rig.

All comments and suggestions are welcome!

Hugh

 

[boxcar1]

Well Hugh , you do have a problem.
I own a 1995 F-350 ,4x4 .
I run the 12000 lb Reece receiver hitch and have no problems mounting my spare under the rig where it belongs.
I think you should re think your hitch.
A pylon ( hitch ) mounted winch is ok for a small utility winch but not for a 12000 lb unit. If ever used to it's capacity you will tear everything up.
The winch should be mounted on a solid bumper mount. Warren makes a good one .
You can then adapt a spotting hitch to the winch bumper if you need it ( sounds like you do ) with very little effort.
Not to mention that a really mud or sand stuck 10,000 lb rig will require more than a 12,000lb winch is rated to pull.
Add a third to a half of the vehicle wt to the equation and you will be getting close to the rated winch you will actually need. Most double the rig's weight.
Warren used to make a very nice sidewinder winch that was designed to fit behind the stock bumper between the frame rails, but alas it has been out of production for many years.
Good luck with your problem. And take solace in the fact that many people have had the same problems you are facing with your set up.

 

[poriggity]

Hugh I am right there with you. I own a dodge ram 2500 that weighs in at 7k lbs and with my slide in camper and gear I'm up to 9500 lbs. I too have a front receiver that has a 10k capacity and a 12k winch on that. Its worked for me plenty of times but I dont carry the camper when I am camping somewhere with a more than average chance of getting stuck. Eventually I will pony up for a custom front bumper with winch mount and a 15k winch but that's just not in the cards right now. Unfortunately for the guys driving full-size rigs this is always a challenge.

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk

 

[Lance990]

Well, it's good to know that I am not alone. I would PREFER a heavy duty Buckstop bumper that allows a permanent mounted winch AND a 2" receiver but it's hard to justify that kind of expense when I may never use it. I like the Warn Trans4mer grill guard setup for my truck but I don't think it allows me to have a winch and a 2" receiver. It is much cheaper than the Buckstop bumper, though.

When I bought my truck there was no spare tire carrier hardware under the bed (not that unusual) but the manufacturer's window sticker says that it came with a spare tire from the dealer (which the previous owner did not have). I purchased all of the hardware for mounting the spare under the bed from LMC Truck and it is all sitting in a box in my garage. Maybe I need to revisit installing it. I know that the spare tire carrier uses the same bolt hole as the hitch so I would have to take at least one bolt out to install the spare tire carrier.

I'm not convinced that I would ever need to pull more than the weight of my truck and TC. This article explains it best Winching Without the Worry by Bruce Elfstrom. In the section, "Winch Recovery" he mentions that on a flat firm surface it takes 7% or 350 pounds to move a 5,000 lbs vehicle. In deep mud or snow, plan to pull 50% or more of the weight of the vehicle. The other factors are general vehicle resistance, resistance of terrain, resistance of slope and winching angle. Yes, all of these can add up to nearly the weight of the vehicle but I can assure you I will never be in a situation where I would have to pull the full weight of the vehicle. I will not be lured into situations where that kind of force would be necessary. It is important to remember that in most situations, the vehicle will roll and that reduces the amount of force necessary to get a vehicle moving. The only situations I imagine I will ever need to use a winch would be in some deep snow or mud where the truck has sunk into soft earth or it has snowed overnight and I need to drive out of some deep snow to get to a road. I will never be on a 45 degree slope (or even close to that angle), rough terrain or with only 15 lbs of tire pressure because my rig is just too heavy for those conditions.

My thoughts are that it is better to have SOME recovery capability than none. Even if I risk exceeding the physical limitations of a frame mounted hitch, it would be better to have a multi-mount winch on hand to at least try to get my rig moving again rather than call in a tow truck to a remote location. I can always use the camper jacks to raise the camper off the truck and winch just the truck out (6,200 lbs) and then figure out how to get the camper out. It might mean waiting for better weather or putting down some track mats and then backing under the camper again and lowering it into the truck bed.

I am just trying to balance my investment with the probability of return. Since I am not doing any hard core off-roading, I won't be getting into situations where I need a $1,700 heavy duty bumper with a permanently mounted $1,700 winch to get me out. If money were no object, I would already have both.

Don't misunderstand me, I appreciate all of the replies and you all make great points. I just want to be smart about this while avoiding needlessly throwing money at something that will never pay off.

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

Hugh,
For a truck with 2 wheel drive it's a straight line from one or two wheels slipping in/on something (the so-called 25-50% effort) to using a winch with the preferred 1-1/2 times the weight of the truck capacity (the so-called 100% effort). When I started looking for a winch for my 10K pound Dodge/Lance lash up, I simply added half the weight to get to that number: 15,000 pounds. This has been tried-and-true industry standard for 50 years and still applies well. It is, I think, important to get the winch size for the app right the first time. I used a Warn Transformer Winch platform and massaged it a bit to get both lower end deflectability and upper end radiator saving ability. This also happened to be the lightest and cheapest way too carry the winch. Hundreds of pounds lighter than the Buckstop or Ranch Hand. The winch itself with 100' of 1/2" wire rope weighs 150 pounds sans carrier. The carrier with all my mods weighs around 80 pounds--by design. It is not a winch bumper, but an add on keeping your stock bumper. Now, how much winch is too much? I have a friend with an 17,800 pound capacity winch on his F-250 with a homemade carrier. Good thing he has an over kill carrier as you run the chance that you will pull your truck's frame into a different shaped pretzel. He already snapped the 1/2" wire rope on his first stick trying to pull in reverse, underneath the truck chassis. He spent the night in that mud hole.
I need to play with my grandkids right now so I'll get back.......
jefe
$$$$$$
I'm back. The Warn Transformer has a flat bottom tray to which I welded a 2" receiver. It has worked well with bike racks and storage racks when needed. I welded 26K pound cement mixer "D" rings to the front of the transformer tray. I've had 7 different winches on 4-byes over the years and it was the Warn 8274 that is my all time fave. Very fast line speed with double able, 150 feet of 5/16ths cable. Double able? I"ve used a lot of snatch blocks and the one I bought from ******** Cepek (himself) in 1972 is as good as any. Actually, you get not double, but because of the friction of coming back, the power increase is about 1.9X and half as fast. My lifetime winches are just below 400 sticks. I wore out a Warn 8K I used it so much in the winter in the mountains near L.A. The little spur gear that turns the bull gear was eventually toothless. Why Warn made that little gear from bronze, I'll never figure out. I"ve also pulled the bumper right off the frame; pulled out a 42' Condor MoHo stuck in the sand at Pismo, and used it to pull my jeep back on it's wheels from upside down, besides up and down cliffs, and even moving sideways on a cliff face. Don't try that at home until you've paid your dues. On several occasions I had to dig a 4' hole slightly larger than the diameter of my spare tire;roll said tire into the hole; attach the winch cable though the center to the 'X' tire iron; bury the spare; winch out; dig the tire back up. This is the classic 'Dead Man' technique. We had to do this several times in a row to get across the entrance to Monache Meadows one year and the rig was a 1966 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40 with the factory installed PTO winch, 100 feet at a time. My fondest recollection was when I entertained 3 Japanese businessmen in town for a meeting. I was asked by a colleague in Japan to take them out to the desert on a ride, "they would not soon forget". It came to pass. We shot the dunes, they got stuck with prickly pear. We were crossing Whitewater River near Palm Springs when the '70 FJ-55 with Warn 8K sank to the frame. Luckily I had the spare in back and not underneath, so l waded out and rolled the tire to dry land; came back for a shovel and the winch cable; all the time the 3 guys looking pretty pale in the idling rig. The tail pipe was underwater so I didn't want to turn the engine off. The Chevy V-8 just blubbed away like a motorboat. I did the "deadman" technique and after a while we were on our way back to L.A. The 3 guys spoke almost no English, but asked me what the rescue technique was called. "Deadman", says I. I listened intently to their animated conversation as we drove back and every so often I would hear, "Deadaman" in the phrase.
The bottom line is you want a winch that's tuned to your needs; a carrier or bumper that is enough for the setup at hand but not too heavy (My 3" lift on the front sags about an inch with the weight of the winch and carrier on. YMMV); some actual technique on how to use it; and some basic accessories. Accessories? Snatch block. extra 30' of rolled up cable rolled up with a hook (and spring loaded safety clip) on each end. One end a big hook with safety and the other end a smaller hook with safety. 3-various sized "D" rings. A 30', 4" wide, 30K pound rated tow strap with loops on the ends. A short piece of chain with link-hooks on both ends. A tree saver. A Cat Choker. Something I just listed will work best in any situation. I always try to be in a position to make a straight pull, with the cable aiming straight forward. This reduces stress on the frame and fairlead. What I found with a winch with as much pull as the 15K Warn is that you must use a dead man if you are pulling something else out of a stick. You need to attach the truck to something that won't move in order that it not just slide with all four locked up when winching. I had to learn this several time before it sunk in. Also, the most frustrating part about using a winch is the lack of something to attach to others' rigs.
The untold truth about owning and using a winch is that you mostly use it to pull other people out of a jam. We've use our winches to pull big snags over or around in order to cut them up for firewood.
Finally, I've had some winches made in China and all of them were not worth a hoot. An 8K and 9K bit the dust early, and basically fell apart. China Freight now has a very high K winch (18K pounds or there about) which might be over kill and has a very slow line speed (aka gear reduction) to make the advertised pull power.
Just beware, as always,
jefe

 

[HenryJ]

Mine might not be quite as heavy as yours, but with the trailer I bet I would be close to 10k or more. I have a 9500# Milemarker on a Hidden Hitch cradle. Mine was on a home built front receiver in this photo.

Basically I rammed the truck into the drift and then winched through. Got us in there a month ahead of the usual season

Since then I upgraded my front bumper. Not due to the hitch, but because the plastic below the bumper that gave way to a small stump.

The Ranchhand bumper really is an excellent value. Mine was $900 delivered. Worth looking to see if one might be in your rigs future.

Know your limits and work within them. Sounds like you already have that frame of mind. The receiver mount winch offers options. I really like that. front, back, trailer, another vehicle...lots of places it can be used.

It has made it possible for me to go and do more. That is worth the investment

 

[AFBronco235]

I have to go to work now, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents on this issue.

The only thing worse than wasting money on a winch that will get you out, and never using it is wasting money on a winch that won't get you out, and NEEDING IT!!!

I just think you need to keep this in mind when you're thinking about cost.

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

Receiver mount winches are fine for small 4WD's, but a real pain with a F.S. rig. What's the problem? 1. Weight. If you can dead lift 160 pounds, you are O.K. I have a friend in the tree felling biz and he uses an 8274 with a 2" receiver, front and rear. It's 125 pounds and he's a weight lifter, so this all works. Any 2" receiver hitch that I've seen on the front of a truck is not rated for much more than 10K pounds. That's where the home-made version comes in. My transformer is rated for 15K pounds. I had to call them and talk to the winch tech guy who said it would be O.K. I'm sure they were unwilling to give it more capacity than the lawyers would allow.
2. The amount of #4 cable you need to run from the batteries to the winch at the rear. One of my old winches drew 300 amps at dead stall. You don't want to be there very long. It will take down your batterie(s) in a hurry.
There is a school of thought with winches to have only one....at the rear, figuring if you got there going forward you can get out by going backward. I have friends with winches front and rear, but these are on small 4WD's. Winching uphill on the Lewis and Clark trail about a month before it was open: you can see the wire rope going up to a big tree in first pic. At this point I was just trying to turn around.

 

[Lance990]

The only thing worse than wasting money on a winch that will get you out, and never using it is wasting money on a winch that won't get you out, and NEEDING IT!!!

I just think you need to keep this in mind when you're thinking about cost.

Good point! I believe you get what you pay for and if you pay more for a Warn winch you are getting a better winch. I've heard people talk about Badlands, Smittybilt and other Chinese winches as "throwaway" winches. For the low cost, it makes sense. If you break one of the cheaper ones and have to replace it or find out it doesn't have enough power to pull a heavy rig out, then you have to buy another one and what have you saved? I get it, I truly do. I just wish there were a way to make a multi-mount setup strong enough to pull on my rig. Some guys have custom fabrication done to solve problems like this so maybe I should consider that.

 

[AFBronco235]

Good point! I believe you get what you pay for and if you pay more for a Warn winch you are getting a better winch. I've heard people talk about Badlands, Smittybilt and other Chinese winches as "throwaway" winches. For the low cost, it makes sense. If you break one of the cheaper ones and have to replace it or find out it doesn't have enough power to pull a heavy rig out, then you have to buy another one and what have you saved? I get it, I truly do. I just wish there were a way to make a multi-mount setup strong enough to pull on my rig. Some guys have custom fabrication done to solve problems like this so maybe I should consider that.

I didn't get time to say this earlier, but a custom winch mount up front would be your best bet. It would be very easy to mount a winch between the forward frame rails on your 97 F350. You may even be able to do it and keep the stock bumper. You may just have to move it forward a few inches, depending on how big your winch is. All you'd really need is a heavy enough plate to mount between the frame rails and bolt the winch to. Heck, you could even weld a receiver tube onto the underside of that plate and get double duty out of it.

Now, if you're still dead set on being able to winch backwards, I have seen some professional rigs with the winch cable routed so it could be used front or back by running it under the body and through the frame rails by guiding it with pullies, but it gets a bit complicated.

 

[Lance990]

Receiver mount winches are fine for small 4WD's, but a real pain with a F.S. rig. What's the problem? 1. Weight. If you can dead lift 160 pounds, you are O.K. I have a friend in the tree felling biz and he uses an 8274 with a 2" receiver, front and rear. It's 125 pounds and he's a weight lifter, so this all works. Any 2" receiver hitch that I've seen on the front of a truck is not rated for much more than 10K pounds. That's where the home-made version comes in. My transformer is rated for 15K pounds. I had to call them and talk to the winch tech guy who said it would be O.K. I'm sure they were unwilling to give it more capacity than the lawyers would allow.
2. The amount of #4 cable you need to run from the batteries to the winch at the rear. One of my old winches drew 300 amps at dead stall. You don't want to be there very long. It will take down your batterie(s) in a hurry.
There is a school of thought with winches to have only one....at the rear, figuring if you got there going forward you can get out by going backward. I have friends with winches front and rear, but these are on small 4WD's. Winching uphill on the Lewis and Clark trail about a month before it was open: you can see the wire rope going up to a big tree in first pic. At this point I was just trying to turn around.

I have been in an email conversation with John Swyers at Warn about this issue several months ago and he confirms what you said about M15. It will work great with the Trans4mer winch mount. It looks like I can STILL have a 2" receiver and a winch using the Trans4mer system but it is unclear from the information on their website so I emailed him with the question (he is out for the holidays). Warn also has a kit with 2 gauge to install on the rear of a vehicle that includes 24' of wiring.

 

[Lance990]

I didn't get time to say this earlier, but a custom winch mount up front would be your best bet. It would be very easy to mount a winch between the forward frame rails on your 97 F350. You may even be able to do it and keep the stock bumper. You may just have to move it forward a few inches, depending on how big your winch is. All you'd really need is a heavy enough plate to mount between the frame rails and bolt the winch to. Heck, you could even weld a receiver tube onto the underside of that plate and get double duty out of it.

Now, if you're still dead set on being able to winch backwards, I have seen some professional rigs with the winch cable routed so it could be used front or back by running it under the body and through the frame rails by guiding it with pullies, but it gets a bit complicated.

You make it sound simple and I must therefore research this option now! ;-) I know a welding guy who could probably help me fabricate a solution. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Lance990]

So I have been thinking more about this. I looked behind the bumper at the amount of space I have to mount a winch and it looks like there is room. However, I may have a better idea.

I have been doing more reading on the physics of winching, even consulting the Army field manual for recovery, and I think that I have a solution that will allow me to use the multi-mount winch setup. I can take some of the burden off of the receiver by mounting d-ring shackles on the end of the frame. My receiver has tow hooks but rigging a double line pull BACK to the receiver won't take any load off the receiver. However, if I run the winch line out, through a snatch block and back to a frame mounted d-ring on the truck, I will effectively reduce the pull on the receiver by 50% (less if you calculate resistance of the snatch block). So, if my LW is 10,000 lbs and I rig a double line pull this way, the force applied to the hitch receiver is only 5,000 lbs. The hitch is rated for 9,000 lbs straight line pull so this would work assuming that I will be pulling 100% of GVW. Now, let's make it more challenging. Let's say that the rolling weight of my rig is twice that at 20,000 lbs due to resistance factors (slope, mud, snow etc). With a double line pull with a 2:1 mechanical advantage, this puts 10,000 lbs of force on the receiver, clearly exceeding it's physical limits. In this case, I would run a triple line pull to another anchor and create a 3:1 mechanical advantage. Rigging this way would mean that the receiver now only has 6,666 lbs of force applied to it while the frame mounted d-ring has 6,666 lbs of force and the final anchor has 6,666 lbs of force applied to it. At this point I would still be within the weight rating of the receiver. I can't imagine being in a situation where I would be pulling a rolling weight of 20,000 lbs. First of all, I would never drive into a situation where that would be a risk.

My front hitch is bolted to the frame using 8 bolts that are 1/2" thick with 4 on each side. The receiver serves to strengthen the frame by bracing the ends. The frame is not boxed on the 2WD models and is weaker than the 4WD models. Here is a photo of the back of the bumper where the end of the frame touches the bumper:



This photo shows how the hitch mounts to the frame:



This is where the bumper mounts to the frame (not a good place to install a tow hook, btw)



It may be possible to use the existing bumper (with accent grill) to extend a piece of steel bar out from the frame through the bumper opening and hook a d-ring shackle onto it as an anchor point/tow hook:



Here's a photo of the center opening in the bumper where it may be possible to mount the fairlead if I do a custom fabrication on a hidden winch. I might be able to run the winch cable through this opening if the bumper isn't strong enough to mount the fairlead :



The only problem with the above is accessing the winch to free spool. I would have to modify the bumper to gain access to the winch. There is room on the front forward frame rails to install a channel winch mount.

 

[Motafinga]

I've been looking into doing a similar set-up as far as mounting a winch behind the stock bumper and found this >>>http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/94...-hidden-winch-factory-bumper-intercooler.html

 

[Lance990]

I've been looking into doing a similar set-up as far as mounting a winch behind the stock bumper and found this >>>http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/94...-hidden-winch-factory-bumper-intercooler.html

I had found that site, too, while searching for solutions. There's a lot of fab work that guy did to achieve the end result. The basic design principal is pretty simple and doable on an OBS model. In fact, there are several channel plates for winch mounting available but I think most of them are for Jeeps not full size trucks. At least you can choose the thickness of the structural C to use. Since I already have a front mounted hitch, I have a good deal of structural support as seen in the photos above. I like what that guy did but not sure if I want to attempt the metal drilling and cutting.