New DC to DC Charger From Renogy-20 amps or 40 amps-Flooded/AGM/GEL/Lithium

luthj

Engineer In Residence
As mentioned, charging to a voltage at just the beginning of the knee is the best approach. If you must get that last 4% in, use a lower rate. Staying mostly out of the knee at the end of the SOC curve means you need much less balancing. For example, if your cells are within 5% of each other with regards to internal resistance, and 1-3% capacity, you could go hundreds of cycles between 90 and 10% SOC, without balancing. This assumes a charge discharge rate well under .5C, ideally .2C charge and .3C discharge.

Some rough math indicates that a well matched bank treated such as the above, needs less than 250mA per 100AH of capacity in balance current, and even then its probably more than enough. The full-time balance boards could probably be safe with as little as 100ma per 100AH, assuming you keep the charge/discharge rates as described above. The high current balancers are usually for EVs, Ebikes, etc, which see very high charge/discharge currents.

For a faster charge, using say 14.0.1-14.1V and terminating at around .1C return current works as well. For higher voltage chargers you may want to terminate at a slightly lower voltage.

Any charger that is setup for LFP, really needs a return amps termination for optimal longevity. Especially if charging at voltages over 14V. If a lower voltage is selected (say 13.8-14V), this is not as important. It is possible to use absorb timers instead. For example 3 minutes at 14.1V for a charger rated at 0.5C or lower. This should be set experimentally while monitoring the return amps. There really isn't a whole lot of benefit from going above 14.1V, that last ~4% comes at a much higher lifecycle cost than the rest.


The renogy unit described seems like a good deal though. Does it have a voltage sense wire? That would be very useful for folks with long charging runs.
 
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john61ct

Adventurer
For a faster charge, using say 14.0.1-14.1V and terminating at around .1C return current works as well.
I agree overall, but some specific nits to pick.

If the focus is on longevity, sacrificing a few percentage of capacity at the top is a given, assumed, but that can be 3-6% of the "theoretical maximum", and still well over vendor rating. 10% is not required, yes just a nitpick, but personally I'd rather keep DoD lower at the bottom end to gain lifetime cycles.

___
Voltage is really a bit of a red herring, only used as shorthand within a given context.

The three inextricably inter-related factors are:

CV setpoint, Voltage
Current rate, max Amps offered
Absorb time, if any

There are an infinite number of profile combinations that will lead to exactly the same SoC end result after a resting period.

At low currents, SoC is much higher for a given voltage, so in fact more care is then needed to avoid overcharging (losing cycles). 3.45Vpc/13.8 is really the highest I'd use, for example in low rate solar charging.

It is at high current rates (say above .2C) where we can allow the V setpoint to go a bit higher safely.

Any charger that is setup for LFP, really needs a return amps termination for optimal longevity.

Absorb / CV time is only "needed" if getting to max (safe) capacity is important. If stopping at 90% is fine for the use case, "charging To" a V setpoint with zero time holding CV is a simpler strategy, and whether that setpoint is 3.5Vpc/14V or 3.55Vpc/14.2V or even 3.6Vpc/14.4V for a very high C rate (say .7C) can be determined by load testing to determine actual SoC attained.

If charging is extended into the CV stage,

only "needed" at higher currents (again for a few % increased capacity)

then 3.45Vpc is best, no higher.

For longevity a .1C trailing amps stop-charge spec is IMO going too long, too high SoC, too low an endAmps setpoint.

A .5C setpoint will lose below 1% and be gentler, and even .2C better than .1C.


There really isn't a whole lot of benefit from going above 14.1V, that last ~4% comes at a much higher lifecycle cost than the rest.

There is no benefit, downside only.
 

AlumniCU

Member
I have received the 20A version from Renogy. My plan is to connect it to a 10 AWG wire running from my starter battery to a 100Ah battery box in the back of my rig. The converter will be inside the battery box, with appropriate ventilation.

Any advice on things that I should consider as I wire this up?


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I have received the 20A version from Renogy. My plan is to connect it to a 10 AWG wire running from my starter battery to a 100Ah battery box in the back of my rig. The converter will be inside the battery box, with appropriate ventilation.

Any advice on things that I should consider as I wire this up?

How far is the battery box going to be? 10 awg might be okay, but if you've got the room I'd try and go 8 or even 4awg if you can. Remember to use same size wire for pos and neg. You can use an online calc to figure out appx voltage drop based on distance and power.
Did you go for the 20 or 40 amp version? If using the 40amp version, I'd definitely do larger wire. I'd probably use Anderson power poles on amazon to quick connect/disconnect, but everyone has their favorite connector.
Make sure to use fuses/circuit breakers on both ends.
 

hour

Observer
Any advice on things that I should consider as I wire this up?

I'd do as continuecrushing mentioned and run a slightly larger wire. If the cost of your wiring at 10 gauge is a couple bucks less than 8 gauge, may as well. I hate running wire, but it's all the same to me until you reach a diameter that won't easily conceal beneath door trim panels or maneuver without excessive profanity. Also consider if you'll ever want or need to run loads off of the starter battery. A bad example on this forum would be a subwoofer... may as well feed a distribution block 4 gauge, send smaller gauge to the DC-DC charger on a now much shorter run, and be able to wire an amp.

I'd probably be wondering... why would I ever want to run loads off the starter battery if I have a nice aux battery that's always charged. But paying (idunno) $40 more for larger wire and a distribution block, and adding maybe 5 minutes on to the installation.. I'd do that.
 

hour

Observer
Please don't flatter him like that, Doctor implies more technical depth.

I'm thrilled that he keeps things at the level he does, and I know he does so intentionally. It's good info. For this product in particular, compare vid to what's on Renogy's website :cautious:
 

AlumniCU

Member
How far is the battery box going to be? 10 awg might be okay, but if you've got the room I'd try and go 8 or even 4awg if you can. Remember to use same size wire for pos and neg. You can use an online calc to figure out appx voltage drop based on distance and power.
Did you go for the 20 or 40 amp version? If using the 40amp version, I'd definitely do larger wire. I'd probably use Anderson power poles on amazon to quick connect/disconnect, but everyone has their favorite connector.
Make sure to use fuses/circuit breakers on both ends.

I have the 20 amp. 10AWG is already wired for an ARB fridge (ARB’s wiring kit). Will look at 8AWG and a distribution box in rear. Will try with the 10AWG to see how the converter works while I order wire and a box.

The DC/DC converter also needs to be wired to ignition to turn automatically turn on when the 4Runner is started. Thinking of wiring it to switch to turn on manually when I needed it. Or tap a line. Anyone know if I can tap into a line in the back of the 5th gen that would tell the converter when the car is started?




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john61ct

Adventurer
Are you saying it does not have an auto-sense to start based on voltage rising?

IOW designed to only charge from alt power?
 

john61ct

Adventurer
I'm thrilled that he keeps things at the level he does, and I know he does so intentionally. It's good info. For this product in particular, compare vid to what's on Renogy's website :cautious:
I'm not saying there may not be some value there.

I'm saying

do not assume he knows much about the tech side.

And realize he's monetizing his "contriibutions to the community".

Trust but verify.
 

AlumniCU

Member
Are you saying it does not have an auto-sense to start based on voltage rising?

IOW designed to only charge from alt power?

Yes - switched on by D+ signal, alternator signal or switched input signal...

I imagine would have to add a voltage sensing relay to control that. Suggestions?


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john61ct

Adventurer
I'd suggest either an appropriate manual switch, or only buying it when alt is the only charge source.

Actually, put all sources to House directly, use this just to keep Starter batt topped up, that would be ideal!
 

AlumniCU

Member
I'd suggest either an appropriate manual switch, or only buying it when alt is the only charge source.

Actually, put all sources to House directly, use this just to keep Starter batt topped up, that would be ideal!

Can anyone recommend an appropriate relay that would send signal to converter when car/alt is running and voltage is higher?

The big idea here was to have everything self contained in an battery box, so that It could move car to car.

If practical, would have a 12v power input from alternators/starter battery into battery box, then into voltage relay to turn on,and then through converter to battery. That make sense?

I’m new at this and have built a Pelican 1600 box with 100Ah AGM, AC battery charger, solar controller (w/200W solar), and 12v outputs to fridge and other uses. Will also add an inverter. It works great so far.







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