New Defender News

[plainjaneFJC]

I literally did a facepalm. But, the old TIO/TIBO did the trick.

But this is a case in point as to why modern upmarket vehicles almost universally get poor reliability ratings - many ponytailed soccer moms or weekend warrior dads would stop right there, dial up the Land Rover dealer, and demand it get fixed immediately, then they would drop it off two days to a week later without it ever occurring since, and the Land Rover dealer would do some analysis, find nothing, reflash the module so they could say they did something, and give it back - with a ding against their reliability rating.

But some people, like these guys, would just turn it off, turn it back on, the fault would clear, and they'd be on their way. Because what likely happened was a missed message or module handshake on the CANBUS - nothing was really *wrong* with anything.

I have a feeling this is why JLR has enabled SOTA updates. The first case could then be handled over the phone with the dealer, who could queue up an update/reflash for the next time they leave it overnight, or clear the fault code remotely and reassure the driver that everything is fine.

Its the owners fault their cars throw trouble codes?

 

[DieselRanger]

Its the owners fault their cars throw trouble codes?

No, but many times trouble codes aren't indicators of actual trouble, and some patience is warranted. In the satellite world we call that a "single event upset" which means we have no clue what happened (a diagnosis-by-default after eliminating all other causes), but we power cycled the module and it came back on and seems to be working fine. So we shrug and go on with life.

Would you rather have a system that occasionally falsely reports problems but always reports real problems, or would you rather have a system that never falsely reports problems but occasionally fails to report an actual problem? Control system engineers would almost always rather engineer the former, especially where critical system components are concerned.

When an app on your $1,000 smartphone fails to launch correctly, or when you got the Blue Screen of Death on your computer as recently as a few years ago, did you call your phone provider or Best Buy and book it for a service appointment? No, you reboot it and when it doesn't happen again you shrug and go on with life.

But drivers, especially older drivers who can afford higher end vehicles that contain more computing power than the Space Shuttle have been conditioned with Idiot Lights like the CEL that only monitored critical systems (until emissions regulations forced them to instrument the gas cap and tie that to the CEL, which served to tell the driver they didn't fully tighten the gas cap). So if the car says "something is broken," the conditioned response is to take it to the dealer where they "fix something".

When consumers take their car to the dealer for a Single Event Upset and get their car back and the dealer tells them "we couldn't find anything wrong," that leads to unsatisfied consumers who think a) this car is unreliable, and b) my dealer service shop are a bunch of morons. So when it comes to vehicle software, the pressure is on the dealer to satisfy the consumer by fixing something, which usually means "reflashing the module."

But that in turn fills up service bays with vehicles that are probably totally fine, which frustrates customers who have more rare "real" problems, and this is especially true for many JLR customers who have complained they can't get a service appointment.

So now JLR and others are building in SOTA updates, mostly so they can conduct remote troubleshooting and update nervous or troublesome modules without the customer having to bring the vehicle in for an appointment. And that makes for more happy customers and better reliability statistics.

 

[mpinco]

Or you design the control system to be fault tolerant and self heal for intermittent events. Require multiple fails before reporting a failure. A really simple concept. A single line of code. Log the event for historical purposes. Hard fault? Manage accordingly.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

No, but many times trouble codes aren't indicators of actual trouble, and some patience is warranted. In the satellite world we call that a "single event upset" which means we have no clue what happened (a diagnosis-by-default after eliminating all other causes), but we power cycled the module and it came back on and seems to be working fine. So we shrug and go on with life.

Would you rather have a system that occasionally falsely reports problems but always reports real problems, or would you rather have a system that never falsely reports problems but occasionally fails to report an actual problem? Control system engineers would almost always rather engineer the former, especially where critical system components are concerned.

When an app on your $1,000 smartphone fails to launch correctly, or when you got the Blue Screen of Death on your computer as recently as a few years ago, did you call your phone provider or Best Buy and book it for a service appointment? No, you reboot it and when it doesn't happen again you shrug and go on with life.

But drivers, especially older drivers who can afford higher end vehicles that contain more computing power than the Space Shuttle have been conditioned with Idiot Lights like the CEL that only monitored critical systems (until emissions regulations forced them to instrument the gas cap and tie that to the CEL, which served to tell the driver they didn't fully tighten the gas cap). So if the car says "something is broken," the conditioned response is to take it to the dealer where they "fix something".

When consumers take their car to the dealer for a Single Event Upset and get their car back and the dealer tells them "we couldn't find anything wrong," that leads to unsatisfied consumers who think a) this car is unreliable, and b) my dealer service shop are a bunch of morons. So when it comes to vehicle software, the pressure is on the dealer to satisfy the consumer by fixing something, which usually means "reflashing the module."

But that in turn fills up service bays with vehicles that are probably totally fine, which frustrates customers who have more rare "real" problems, and this is especially true for many JLR customers who have complained they can't get a service appointment.

So now JLR and others are building in SOTA updates, mostly so they can conduct remote troubleshooting and update nervous or troublesome modules without the customer having to bring the vehicle in for an appointment. And that makes for more happy customers and better reliability statistics.

You are cutting them a ton of slack...lol. My ford doesnt throw random faults on the screen that require a reboot, if it did I'd be taking it in. Even if nothing mechanically is wrong, something electrically is.

 

[Carson G]

I’ve found in my experience most one time faults in LR’s are voltage related. In the event of the voltage dropping they typically shut down systems and that usually triggers a one time fault. I also know from experience they don’t show every small fault only if it involves a semi critical system. Frankly without looking at the vehicles log no one knows what suspension fault actually came up.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

I’ve found in my experience most one time faults in LR’s are voltage related. In the event of the voltage dropping they typically shut down systems and that usually triggers a one time fault. I also know from experience they don’t show every small fault only if it involves a semi critical system. Frankly without looking at the vehicles log no one knows what suspension fault actually came up.

So the new car has a voltage problem??

 

[Carson G]

So the new car has a voltage problem??

All CANBUS LR’s are finicky about their batteries. If the battery isn’t in perfect condition it’ll throw all kinds of faults. In fact IIRC LR had a TSB for the battery on the Defender. Or at least that’s what I remember hearing from powerfuluk’s channel. Frankly that battery could’ve been a little low from sitting and not being driven much then combine it with cold weather and you’ll get faults. I know before I replaced the battery in my D3 it would get real ticked off on a cold morning. It would always start but it would throw a shed load of faults. Now with a new battery no faults as long as the battery is charged. The power issue is probably less of a issue now as computers have gotten more power efficient.

 

[jaamrode]

You are cutting them a ton of slack...lol. My ford doesnt throw random faults on the screen that require a reboot, if it did I'd be taking it in. Even if nothing mechanically is wrong, something electrically is.

I’ve owned my new f-150 for 3 weeks and had to “reboot” the infotainment system probably 5 times already. Once I couldn’t even turn the radio off without shutting down the truck. Did it throw a fault? No, but it sure doesn’t work properly all the time.

All manufacturers pretty much have these “problems” now.

 

[Christian P.]

I’ve owned my new f-150 for 3 weeks and had to “reboot” the infotainment system probably 5 times already. Once I couldn’t even turn the radio off without shutting down the truck. Did it throw a fault? No, but it sure doesn’t work properly all the time.

All manufacturers pretty much have these “problems” now.

We have a 2016 BWM 340I XDrive that we bought brand new. Does it have CANBUS?
Because we did not have to reboot anything at all since we got it 5 years ago and we are not experiencing any voltage problem.

 

[DieselRanger]

Even if nothing mechanically is wrong, something electrically is.

Not necessarily. Missing a handshake or a heartbeat that results in a false alarm isn't always indicative of an electrical fault either. Service busses get clogged with messages, especially on startup - CAN is a priority/hierarchy based system, it is serial and it is synchronous, and it has practical limitations just like any other electrical or data driven bus. Occasionally the status reporting from a lower priority system, subsystem, or component will get out competed enough that the service manager will time out trying to listen for it and throw a code - this is a known limitation with CAN. Without knowing what that code is it's hard to tell whether it was related to something mechanical, electrical, or just a failure of the service manager to find it on the bus, even though it's working just fine.

But based the fact that it cleared itself when they restarted the car, it was clearly working just fine, so it's reasonable to assume that this was a false alarm. Shrug and go on with life.

What Ford do you have? Does it have the same number and type of systems as the Defender? I suspect not. Does it offer SOTA updates, and thus require more active monitoring and control of the various software modules on board? No, it does not.

 

[mpinco]

The comparison point .......

The Million-Mile 2007 Toyota Tundra Pickup: The Teardown

The high-mileage 2007 Toyota Tundra pickup truck was torn down to check its wear and tear—and here's what Toyota found.

www.motortrend.com

 

[DieselRanger]

We have a 2016 BWM 340I XDrive that we bought brand new. Does it have CANBUS?
Because we did not have to reboot anything at all since we got it 5 years ago and we are not experiencing any voltage problem.

Yes it does have CANBUS, all production cars today do. But does it have cameras on all sides that can be used for real time driving information other than just backing up, does it have things like lane keep assist and city driving features with radars and more cameras, does it have autonomous emergency braking, does it have a mild hybrid system with battery controllers and motor controllers,.... etc etc.

The amount of data moving around a car driven by more and more systems and components that need separate and discrete monitoring is growing very fast. This includes emissions equipment and engine components that must all work together very closely to be granted certification. The automotive industry has been exploring alternative system monitor and control technologies like ethernet and fiber networks onboard, but that has to trickle down (or up) through the automotive supply chain.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

Yes it does have CANBUS, all production cars today do. But does it have cameras on all sides that can be used for real time driving information other than just backing up, does it have things like lane keep assist and city driving features with radars and more cameras, does it have autonomous emergency braking, does it have a mild hybrid system with battery controllers and motor controllers,.... etc etc.

The amount of data moving around a car driven by more and more systems and components that need separate and discrete monitoring is growing very fast. This includes emissions equipment and engine components that must all work together very closely to be granted certification. The automotive industry has been exploring alternative system monitor and control technologies like ethernet and fiber networks onboard, but that has to trickle down (or up) through the automotive supply chain.

Lots of new fords have all that.....

 

[DieselRanger]

Lots of new fords have all that.....

Like which ones?

 

[plainjaneFJC]

f series trucks, I am sure most all the lincolns do as well.