New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[DorB]

Wasn't blind loyalty by any means but that is what you see. I made clear observations by very clear indicators of bad driving and not properly using the TC; seen and heard on the video. My point was use the same driver of the D90 as he clearly knows how to drive and you can see his posture, control, navigation, and overall understanding of how to properly get up that obstacle. I would say the same thing and did when I commented on watching very capable Jeeps and Tacos perform as they should with the experienced driver and go nowhere with the wrong driver. Furthermore, I have never once stated anything of the sort related to lockers not be overly advantageous

It wasn't a cut on any other vehicle or denial; I can watch the same on Jeep and Taco and 4Runner videos on amateurs making great vehicles look like poorly equipped mall crawlers.

Don't read into it; I'm saying its not a fair comparison as we know nothing other that what we clearly see. If you think that is how to use a TC, locked or unlocked that you are tackling obstacles with hammer and anvil tactics and I feel sorry for your vehicle. Just because we see a flash of the dash with lockers doesn't mean that was the configuration; I find it very hard to believe that JLR took all of the good from their many years of successful traction control from the Defender. So clearly seeing indications of the rear not being locked is not evidence by seeing both rear wheels spinning differently; can you really say the rear is locked just as you make assumptions that a company with decades of successful TC use all of a sudden didn't make their rear locker actually lock?

There is zero reason for that much wheel spin; it comes from poor throttle modulation which takes time for the TC to catch up to the constant throttle and braking by the driver; TC use requires practice and understanding and yes, it does require consistant momentum and not rocking of the vehicle through throttle and brake manipulation. I can make any vehicle do that; exactly how I get the Taco stuck in the sand dunes when the TC won't let me. I induce the wheel spin and digging to bury the truck to the frame so we can practice recovery procedures. Jeep also uses TC and proper use of the TC is required anytime you are driving unlocked.

Fully locked does provide much more room for poor driving technique so maybe that is just what you are used to. Do you drive around everywhere with your lockers engaged even on the trail when not needed?

Blaming the driver?..

Wasn’t the whole point of this over complex systems to extract the driver’s mistakes with a “smart” TC that combine TC and a true locker?


You can also blame the soil/rock formation which are different from Britain, ohh and don’t forget the air, yes.
The air density is also different and affect the tries..

 

[Corgi_express]

In one of the few English comments on the video, the person who posted it acknowledges that two other drivers had no problems getting the new Defender up the obstacle, so yeah blaming the driver seems entirely appropriate.

My armchair theory is that the Defender is set to sand mode instead of rock crawl or even mud/ruts. The wild wheel spin does not match my brief experience driving with wheels off the ground, and looks a lot more like a system desperately trying to keep wheels spinning in soft stuff, while the driver keeps taking away the power.

 

[catmann]

The Wrangler High Altitude versus Project Kahn Defender battle is officially on...

British Land Rover tuning firm upgrades new Defender 110 | Autocar

Chelsea Truck Company's new Defender First Edition features bespoke wheels and design elements

www.autocar.co.uk

 

[Blaise]

Blaming the driver?..

Wasn’t the whole point of this over complex systems to extract the driver’s mistakes with a “smart” TC that combine TC and a true locker?

If a wrangler or 4R owner leaves their truck in 2WD, would you not call it out?

Cmon man.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Blaming the driver?..

Yes, blaming the driver.

Wasn’t the whole point of this over complex systems to extract the driver’s mistakes with a “smart” TC that combine TC and a true locker?

No, the point of a complex system is not to take the brain from the driver; it's called "human interface and system management". Jeep systems have TC as well so, does that make Jeep drivers idiots and the vehicle does everything for them? Of course not, people running Jeeps in the Rubicon and other extreme conditions have absolute skills, knowledge of their vehicles, and their systems, capabilities, and limitations! The only guy busting on any product here is you and a few others; the rest of us seem to agree that Jeeps and Yotas and all kinds of vehicles serve a great purpose and have systems that still need solid understanding and at least some degree of skill to to navigate complex obstacles. So back to my statement of seeing very capable vehicles not performing simple, medium, or complex tasks due to human interface; or lack their of!

You can also blame the soil/rock formation which are different from Britain, ohh and don’t forget the air, yes.
The air density is also different and affect the tries..

Yes, the soil content in different in Britain, so is the Density Altitude (DA) from Isreal, and SoCal, and various other parts of the planet depending on temperature, dew point, and a variety of other environmental factors; see, we agree on a few things!

However, I am not blaming or arguing the terrain or environmental factors in any aspect and nor did I say that; unless you mean the inability of the driver to navigate or conquer the obstacle and terrain before them due to lack of understanding of their vehicle in those conditions; soil and rock formations? Then yes, I blame them, just as I blame myself when I get stuck or make mistakes in my driving; it's my fault not my vehicle. Simply put as @Corgi_express pointed; two other drivers (conveniently not recorded in this video) made it up without problems; so that proves the Defender can go up that obstacle with the right human interface at the controls and proper systems management; just too bad for all of us that the video publisher and yourself only wanted us to see one side. One could ask why you support the video wholeheartedly as fact but then deny or discard the fact that only the one failed example was recorded and published but the two successful runs were not?

Why is it so hard for you to read what is actually being said without attempting to project something that is not? If you truly believe that TC and lockers are designed to make novice drivers handle extreme conditions without proper training and understanding of systems, then I really can't help you or nor want to continue to partake in a closed minded conversation with any other view than your own.

 

[Blaise]

I still can't watch that video in entirety.

Guy just keeps smashing it into things, ignoring his spotters, and using foot-to-the-floor in place of wheel placement, throttle inputs, steering input... everything. And yea those tires are most certainly at street pressure.

Poor truck.

 

[mpinco]

People admit it, TC has limitations and is designed to address the shortcomings of the driver and provide a marketing feature that convinces the potential buyer that they are getting a low cost / high feature benefit. Well that works in many situations but not all. TC is reverse ABS. Cost wise it is much cheaper than lockers. It is why nearly every vehicle has some form of TC. On broken down rocks/marbles it hunts and requires momentum which is always not the best solution. The owner of the new Defender now needs a new lower valence because of "momentum". With dual radiators in front of the wheels and D5 design, could be expensive. For many drivers the new Defender is fine. Just not everyone and all terrains.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Even if it was unlocked, the entire evolution is inexperienced driving all around and we can find examples of this with every make, model, of the best vehicles around. Clear misunderstanding of conditions, capabilities, and limitations of locked or open differential use. Didn't matter what vehicle he was using; given proper training on whatever vehicle being used would have surely made for a great day and less damage to the vehicle and reputation of the vehicle. Limited slip and TC vehicles with proper heel/toe or two feet driving techniques come with experience and many people get by just fine without lockers because they know what they are doing; plain and simple. I've watched bone stock, unlocked Jeep, Landies, Yota's nail gnarly stuff with the right driver behind the wheel; the idea is that many people buy a product and make statements or try and prove that the product does all no matter what level of ability is behind the wheel; that level of thought comes from inexperience as well.

 

[T-Willy]

If I'm reading correctly, the brochure suggests that the center and rear lockers (shown in the dash display earlier in this thread) are not actual locking differentials, but are electronic systems designed to mimic the effects of locking differentials. Is that correct?

The bruchere says:

1. ALL WHEEL DRIVE (AWD) Commanding. Off and on-road. The system intelligently controls torque distribution between the front and rear axle

2. ELECTRONIC ACTIVE DIFFERENTIAL On or off-road. In ice, rain or snow. The optional Electronic Active Differential helps ensure the greatest level of traction. It does so by controlling the slip between the left and right wheels on the rear axle, helping to deliver effortless capability.

 

[DorB]

If a wrangler or 4R owner leaves their truck in 2WD, would you not call it out?

Cmon man.

Yes,
But it’s not the case here.
It’s locked and the settings are right, at least this is what stated.

 

[Carson G]

If I'm reading correctly, the brochure suggests that the center and rear lockers (shown in the dash display earlier in this thread) are not actual locking differentials, but are electronic systems designed to mimic the effects of locking differentials. Is that correct?

The bruchere says:

1. ALL WHEEL DRIVE (AWD) Commanding. Off and on-road. The system intelligently controls torque distribution between the front and rear axle

2. ELECTRONIC ACTIVE DIFFERENTIAL On or off-road. In ice, rain or snow. The optional Electronic Active Differential helps ensure the greatest level of traction. It does so by controlling the slip between the left and right wheels on the rear axle, helping to deliver effortless capability.

They’re electrically actuated clutch packs both center and rear. The center diff has a clutch pack with 10 clutch discs in it. It’s the same transfer case Land Rover has used for the last 15 years in the FFRR, RRS, D3-5, Defender Works V8. Here some pics of the clutch in the transfer case.

 

[MTVR]

The fastest car in the world is always a rental.

 

[Blaise]

People admit it, TC has limitations and is designed to address the shortcomings of the driver and provide a marketing feature that convinces the potential buyer that they are getting a low cost / high feature benefit. Well that works in many situations but not all. TC is reverse ABS. Cost wise it is much cheaper than lockers. It is why nearly every vehicle has some form of TC. On broken down rocks/marbles it hunts and requires momentum which is always not the best solution. The owner of the new Defender now needs a new lower valence because of "momentum". With dual radiators in front of the wheels and D5 design, could be expensive. For many drivers the new Defender is fine. Just not everyone and all terrains.

No, vehicles have TC bc its mandatory by law. Just like ABS and traction control. And no, you don't need momentum for TC to work, at least not on an advanced system like with LR. I can start off from a dead stop and the moment my front wheel spins (no front locker) that wheel is then locked (by brake) and I move forward. You're correct that it's cheaper to incorporate TC for off road use since ABS systems already exist, but wanted to point out the distinction to ensure that we are 100% factual here.

If I'm reading correctly, the brochure suggests that the center and rear lockers (shown in the dash display earlier in this thread) are not actual locking differentials, but are electronic systems designed to mimic the effects of locking differentials. Is that correct?

The bruchere says:

1. ALL WHEEL DRIVE (AWD) Commanding. Off and on-road. The system intelligently controls torque distribution between the front and rear axle

2. ELECTRONIC ACTIVE DIFFERENTIAL On or off-road. In ice, rain or snow. The optional Electronic Active Differential helps ensure the greatest level of traction. It does so by controlling the slip between the left and right wheels on the rear axle, helping to deliver effortless capability.

Yes, they're actual locking center diff, and optional rear locking diff, which it appears it has per the below pic, but wasn't being used thanks to extremely poor driving.

Yes,
But it’s not the case here.
It’s locked and the settings are right, at least this is what stated.

First: I need to retract my previous statement. I was having a hard time watching the vid due to the awful driving and assumed the TC wasn't being used properly. It was still user error - but different error. PAINFUL TO WATCH user error.

Have you driven a modern rover?

Those locks won't stay that way with the "method" this guy is using. He's divebombing every obstacle.

I realize not everyone here is in tune with how you do TC controls, but on a system like this there is no 'manual' locking switch like in a traditional rig. The lockers will disable the moment he gasses it, as the truck doesn't know what's going on. If you go slow and slowly add throttle, the diffs will lock and he woulda walked right up.

You can continue to think I'm being biased but I promise I'm telling you factual information. I'll be on the trail this weekend and can even replicate this exact scenario if I can convince myself to abuse my truck for a minute.

Slowly you add gas, the locker does its thing and up you go. I don't get all the hate for rovers, man. I love me some Jeeps and Toyotas too.

 

[Carson G]

Have you driven a modern rover?

Those locks won't stay that way with the "method" this guy is using. He's divebombing every obstacle.

I realize not everyone here is in tune with how you do TC controls, but on a system like this there is no 'manual' locking switch like in a traditional rig. The lockers will disable the moment he gasses it, as the truck doesn't know what's going on. If you go slow and slowly add throttle, the diffs will lock and he woulda walked right up.

The Defender is different than other modern Rovers. The configurable terrain response allows you to manually lock the center and rear diff if you want to with the touch screen then they should stay fully locked as long as you want. The computer can decide to lock and unlock by itself like other modern Rovers if you haven’t manually locked which may or may not be what they did.

 

[DorB]

No, vehicles have TC bc its mandatory by law. Just like ABS and traction control. And no, you don't need momentum for TC to work, at least not on an advanced system like with LR. I can start off from a dead stop and the moment my front wheel spins (no front locker) that wheel is then locked (by brake) and I move forward. You're correct that it's cheaper to incorporate TC for off road use since ABS systems already exist, but wanted to point out the distinction to ensure that we are 100% factual here.



Yes, they're actual locking center diff, and optional rear locking diff, which it appears it has per the below pic, but wasn't being used thanks to extremely poor driving.



First: I need to retract my previous statement. I was having a hard time watching the vid due to the awful driving and assumed the TC wasn't being used properly. It was still user error - but different error. PAINFUL TO WATCH user error.

Have you driven a modern rover?
[/ATTACH]

Yes,
Defender TD5, Disco 2/3/4
In various terrain types, including rocky as filmed.
This is why I’m surprised by the poor performance in the video.

You could continue blaming the user, but there ware 4 new Defenders with 4 different drivers and similar results.
All on the same line as the old 90/110 that made it up with no drama.

Yes,
This is the 1% extreme terrain you meet in an overland route, but it still is a benchmark to evaluate and compared to the old Defender and other models.

I don’t hate LR, on the contrary, I really like the old defender.
why are you taking it so personal?
You designed the new Defender?