New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[EricTyrrell]

Seriously, you can't have it both ways. Either you take advantage of technology - including suspension, brake materials, and so on (not just computer screens), or you get left behind in capabilities. The LR Defender was left behind decades ago due to to advances in technology (materials and computers controlling such things as traction control etc.).

Behind who and when? In 1990 ("decades ago") its competition was the YJ and TJ, both far inferior (I've owned all of them), G-wagen, and Land Cruiser, among other small Japanese 4x4s. While the LC and G-wagen were more reliable, they were less capable. Yes the G-wagen has lockers, but it can't articulate worth a damn. The Defender can easily add a locker, and the competition is over. The only more capable vehicle that comes to mind is the Unimog, which is even more of a niche utility vehicle than a Defender. It wasn't until the JK Wrangler that they began to make the Defender sweat. By that time most of the other competition had gone soft, or ended production all together. While the Defender was neglected, it was at least gifted traction control which helped tremendously.

Jeep sold the Wrangler to both the "rock crawling" fraternity (both actual ones and wannabes) as well as to the hairdressers. It's a cheap car, built cheaply, and is cheap in quality. So of course, a cheaper car is sold more.
However, look in Europe. There's a reason there is not many Wranglers around. It's simply too cheap, too unsafe, and not that capable when it comes down to it.

It was also sold to the fun-loving crowd. People who just want to go down to the river with the top down, or cruise around the mountains, or tow behind their RV for adventure jaunts from wherever they park.

Why didn't jeep invest in making it up to date? Because people still buy it for two reasons: Image and the fact that you can modify it with a welder and huge tires.

It has been updated. The JL is a far different beast than the Wranglers of old. They've managed to massively refine the interior and comfort of the vehicle without making much compromise to what makes it unique. You have to be unique, or you compete on price or characteristics that a 4x4 can never win.

And if you have a little more money, you can overcome one of the many flaws of the Wrangler: Cheap and not particularly strong axles and throw a Dana axle in there.

Not quite. The non-Rubicon axle strengths improved with each generation, and the Rubicon Dana 44 axles were every bit as strong as LR axles, but on a much lighter vehicle. Now with the JL, they're further improved Dana 44s. Very robust.

Again: How much does the Wrangler tow? How much does it carry?

That's the Wrangler, what it's always been. It's designed to be fun, and most often being towed by something large, rather than towing something large.

An interesting, and mostly accurate way of think about the Defender is as a HD Wrangler. The fun, capability, and simplicity of the Wrangler but in a more heavy duty and slightly larger package. The design similarities are obvious. Everyone in NA thinks a Defender is a cool Jeep. If the Defender had continued to receive the same level of investment the Wrangler had, and JLR wasn't infiltrated by metrosexual flower arrangers, that's what the Defender would still be. They'd still compete head to head, and closely resemble each other, but the Defender would be more robust and work focused. Most of all, the Defender would severely eat into Jeep's market, a very lucrative position.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Aren't we supposed to be about function over form; unless you're EricTyrrell and you need your vehicle to look macho to compensate for something.

You're way off base. My stock, unlifted F150 is far from any brodozer, but it is far more reliable, durable, and utilitarian than any modern LR product. We can carry large items, or material like mulch, trees, etc; carry the kids in comfort and safety, drive through mountains and snow, and tow nearly anything I'd be interested in towing. If the D5 was "function over form" it's load space wouldn't be smaller than its predecessor, among many other aspects that would be completely different. Its a luxury product now; that's no secret, and the most important aspects of luxury goods are aesthetics, emotion, and comfort. Somewhere near the bottom of the list is "function", unless you define function as scented cabin filters.

 

[mpinco]

That standard tow-behind vehicle is the Jeep, in the various forms. I NEVER see a LR towed behind a motorhome. Most are Rubicons with D44's, outfitted for fun. Few are modified. Mostly used by the owners for short trips, exploring, fun in the sun, sold by the thousands per month. Across Colorado/Kansas/Missouri/midwest there are many Jeeps used for travel. LR's are far and few.

Eric was correct on who drives the LR3's/4's, mostly urban soccer-moms and a few guys that use them for commuting during the winter. Pickup trucks rule the road as work vehicles and outnumber even Jeeps. Pretty much a split between guys and gals on Jeeps.

My early 4WD was a J10 Jeep PU ($6,800), replaced with a IH Scout ($1,500) as the family grew, replaced with a D1 ($35,000) after 400K miles on the Scout (I put 300K on it), still have the D1 at 167K miles. At $50K for a new Jeep Rubicon diesel vs $90K for a Luxury Defender MHEV I admit I would be thinking 3 times before spending that much on a replacement vehicle. Maybe if the depreciation curve is steep enough on the Luxury Defender I would consider it.

 

[Pilat]

Behind who and when? In 1990 ("decades ago") its competition was the YJ and TJ, both far inferior (I've owned all of them), G-wagen, and Land Cruiser, among other small Japanese 4x4s. While the LC and G-wagen were more reliable, they were less capable. Yes the G-wagen has lockers, but it can't articulate. The Defender can easily add a locker, and the competition is over. The only more capable vehicle that comes to mind is the Unimog, which is even more of a niche utility vehicle than a Defender. It wasn't until the JK Wrangler that they began to make the Defender sweat. By that time most of the other competition had gone soft, or ended production all together. While the Defender was neglected, it was at least gifted traction control which helped tremendously.


It was also sold to the fun-loving crowd. People who just want to go down to the river with the top down, or cruise around the mountains, or tow behind their RV for adventure jaunts from wherever they park.


It has been updated. The JL is a far different beast than the Wranglers of old. They've managed to massively refine the interior and comfort of the vehicle without making much compromise to what makes it unique. You have to be unique, or you compete on price or characteristics that a 4x4 can never win.


Not quite. The non-Rubicon axle strengths improved with each generation, and the Rubicon Dana 44 axles were every bit as strong as LR axles, but on a much lighter vehicle. Now with the JL, they're further improved Dana 44s. Very robust.


That's the Wrangler, what it's always been. It's designed to be fun, and most often being towed by something large, rather than towing something large.

An interesting, and mostly accurate way of think about the Defender is as a HD Wrangler. The fun, capability, and simplicity of the Wrangler but in a more heavy duty and slightly larger package. The design similarities are obvious. Everyone in NA thinks a Defender is a cool Jeep. If the Defender had continued to receive the same level of investment the Wrangler had, and JLR wasn't infiltrated by metrosexual flower arrangers, that's what the Defender would still be. They'd still compete head to head, and closely resemble each other, but the Defender would be more robust and work focused. Most of all, the Defender would severely eat into Jeep's market, a very lucrative position.

Lots of red herrings there. You're saying that in the old days, the Defender et al was inferior. Yet, today, when they have updated it to be more capable, it is suddenly inferior to the old one?

Remember, I am not talking about rock crawling, yet you constantly seem to use arguments from that "scene". Solid axles has more unsprung weight.

 

[Pilat]

That standard tow-behind vehicle is the Jeep, in the various forms. I NEVER see a LR towed behind a motorhome. Most are Rubicons with D44's, outfitted for fun. Sold by the thousands per month.

Maybe because LR (apart from the old one) is actually driveable? Trailering a toy is nothing new. That's what a lot of rock crawling folk do. How the hell is that a parameter of how good it is?

Eric was correct on who drives the LR3's/4's, mostly urban soccer-moms and a few guys that use them for commuting during the winter. Pickup trucks rule the road as work vehicles and outnumber even Jeeps. Pretty much a split between guys and gals on Jeeps.

Seriously? And it's not about "image" as EricTyrrell now claims it isn't?

It so is with you guys.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Maybe because LR (apart from the old one) is actually driveable? Trailering a toy is nothing new. That's what a lot of rock crawling folk do. How the hell is that a parameter of how good it is?


Seriously? And it's not about "image" as EricTyrrell now claims it isn't?

It so is with you guys.

What ended my LR3 relationship? Multiple cooling line failure, multiple air suspension component failure, interior falling apart, transfer case controller failure, transmission failure. I was done with it. Besides that, it was a pain fitting off-road worthy tires (not large, just durable) and ************** around with spacers, rubbing, chain clearance, spare fitting, etc. It's also very useful to have a bed where I can actually haul things without tearing up the cabin, which don't fit a cabin, or are too dirty.

People who need to get work done or who want to go offroad make the easy decision, get an old traditional SUV, a Jeep, or a pickup.

 

[REDROVER]

You know what’s funny, in this entire Land Rover section there are only 4 ppl who are madly in love with the DISCOFENDER,
They rest of the ppl acknowledge the truth.

here is front shot of the Kia Soul
Oh what an amazing approach angle it can climb 90degree wall on top of your laptop.
Haha

Pics are taken by one of the members in Southern California Land Rover club at LA event, this is the defender used in James Bond move.

 

[mpinco]

Thinking back to my previous 4WD trips I never see another Land Rover. It is all Jeeps, Toyota's, Fords and Broncos. Some modified, most not. A relatively recent trip up Engineer's Pass with my LR4 some girl yelled out "I wouldn't bring my LR4 up here!" as she rode by in a ATV.

The LR4 performed very well in the San Juans. It just isn't the crowd that LR is targeting. DieselRanger was correct when he characterized LR as the 'aspirational' brand. Most LR's are kept in garages. LR understands that as they have collapsed Jaguar and Land Rover design into a single group. (Well, other than the financial realities that drove the redundancies)

 

[Pilat]

What ended my LR3 relationship? Multiple cooling line failure, multiple air suspension component failure, interior falling apart, transfer case controller failure, transmission failure. I was done with it. Besides that, it was a pain fitting off-road worthy tires (not large, just durable) and ************** around with spacers, rubbing, chain clearance, spare fitting, etc. It's also very useful to have a bed where I can actually haul things without tearing up the cabin, which don't fit a cabin, or are too dirty.

I didn't ask about your "LR3 relationship".

So, you basically prefer a pickup.

You were the one who tried to argue that they were no good by arguing it was "only women driving them" in your neck of the woods. That is unquestionably to do about image.

People who need to get work done or who want to go offroad make the easy decision, get an old traditional SUV, a Jeep, or a pickup.

And, yet, you and others continue to use the Wrangler as the perfect example of a good offroad vehicle, even though it can't tow or carry anything.

 

[Blaise]

Engineer's pass is an easy road. (not a shot at mpinco in any way, just using this to repeat myself haha)

I'll repeat what I said before: Everyone complains that modern rovers are too soft and can't go anywhere. Yet I keep asking for a single ROAD or PLACE you cannot go with one of these Modern rovers in North America. I've been looking... and no, obstacles in 4wd parks do not count.

The Wrangler is immensely capable. Overly capable. To the point where I'd rather have more space and comfort than capability, and am willing to compromise. Why is that so upsetting to everyone? If you don't like it, why don't you just buy a wrangler?

I ride a Ducati motorcycle. I don't yell at people for buying a Yamaha or Suzuki or Honda. Or a Kawi. Or whatever. Buy what you like. Sheesh.

 

[mpinco]

Engineer's pass is an easy road. (not a shot at mpinco in any way, just using this to repeat myself haha).......

LOL on the flat section pic. Trail conditions depend on the snow/avalanche season. The pass can go from easy/moderate to difficult/washed out/blocked. Last year was a doozy of a snow/avalanche season for Colorado.

 

[mpinco]

One aspect that is becoming more common is that as the Jeep/LR capabilities are commoditized I see more and more standard SUV's in the backcountry. Which brings us back to a long ago topic of discussion - the attraction of any one vehicle is how it can be personalized by the owner. Can it become a hobby or is it just a vehicle where the manufacturer decides for you what your options are. Vehicles in which the manufacturer enables the add-on/after market, the "hobby", will sell at higher volumes.

 

[Pilat]

One aspect that is becoming more common is that as the Jeep/LR capabilities are commoditized I see more and more standard SUV's in the backcountry. Which brings us back to a long ago topic of discussion - the attraction of any one vehicle is how it can be personalized by the owner. Can it become a hobby or is it just a vehicle where the manufacturer decides for you what your options are. Vehicles in which the manufacturer enables the add-on/after market, the "hobby", will sell at higher volumes.

Sigh. Yes, a Wrangler is easier to modify - especially if you want to do something extreme like rock obstacles. If you want to do that kind of courses, you can buy the damn Wrangler. No one is stopping you. A modern car is more than a rock crawling toy for most people, so catering to that US niche hobby on a global scale is not where the "higher volumes" are. Look at the old defender. That was easily modified, albeit not as cheap (in every way) as the Wrangler is. It didn't sell at all. Not even to you and your obstacle course friends.

g

 

[Blaise]

LOL on the flat section pic. Trail conditions depend on the snow/avalanche season. The pass can go from easy/moderate to difficult/washed out/blocked. Last year was a doozy of a snow/avalanche season for Colorado.

The steep section isn't much harder. This isn't my first or 2nd time on Engineer... Imogene/BlackBear are more challenging but still well within stock LR3 capability.

Still waiting for somebody to chime in with where they can't go with a modern rover. I think everyone is just addicted to excess and has to convince themselves that without 37"s and lockers you're not gonna make it up a forest road...

If I can't find the need for it in SW CO, or in Moab, or in Alaska, or Death Valley, or anywhere out here in the PNW.... where are you guys going? I see 37" Wranglers up and down the trails all over the place, but I'm there too in my LR3....

 

[TrekkerOutdoors]

You're way off base. My stock, unlifted F150 is far from any brodozer, but it is far more reliable, durable, and utilitarian than any modern LR product. We can carry large items, or material like mulch, trees, etc; carry the kids in comfort and safety, drive through mountains and snow, and tow nearly anything I'd be interested in towing. If the D5 was "function over form" it's load space wouldn't be smaller than its predecessor, among many other aspects that would be completely different. Its a luxury product now; that's no secret, and the most important aspects of luxury goods are aesthetics, emotion, and comfort. Somewhere near the bottom of the list is "function", unless you define function as scented cabin filters.

BTW, the 2020 Defender will tow more than your F150. You know it is possible to have luxury and function, right? I probably take my LR4 more places that most would. But nobody bats an eye if someone takes a brand spanking new Rubicon that's $55K+ down one of these trails. I've had a brand new Range Rover Sport follow me through a local OHV park and did just fine. Everyone thought they were nuts for taking a $85K vehicle down those trails, but it's not their money.