New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Blaise]

And the issue is that it's too... nice? Because nobody has yet to give me a place you'd actually need wrangler-rubicon-levels levels of capability. Outside the Rubicon.

Anyone? Anyone? I've asked a dozen times now and it's deafened by the cries for solid-freakin-axles.

More comfort, more safety, efficiency.... these are things we can improve on. But roads aren't getting any worse...

 

[EricTyrrell]

BTW, the 2020 Defender will tow more than your F150. You know it is possible to have luxury and function, right? I probably take my LR4 more places that most would. But nobody bats an eye if someone takes a brand spanking new Rubicon that's $55K+ down one of these trails. I've had a brand new Range Rover Sport follow me through a local OHV park and did just fine. Everyone thought they were nuts for taking a $85K vehicle down those trails, but it's not their money.

My F150 is rated to tow 13,200lbs with a 3,230lb payload, but we're way off topic. Of course luxury and function are capable, but don't pretend there's isn't a compromise. There always is. If there wasn't, modern Land Rovers would be taking a bite out of the Jeep and truck market, but they don't. Plenty at the mall though. Drive around and look at where you see them and where you don't. The reality is right in front of us.

 

[EricTyrrell]

And the issue is that it's too... nice? Because nobody has yet to give me a place you'd actually need wrangler-rubicon-levels levels of capability. Outside the Rubicon.

Anyone? Anyone? I've asked a dozen times now and it's deafened by the cries for solid-freakin-axles.

More comfort, more safety, efficiency.... these are things we can improve on. But roads aren't getting any worse...

First the Wrangler somehow isn't the at the top of off-road capability, and now maybe it is, but it's unnecessary.

 

[Blaise]

Exactly, compromise is a thing. The wrangler is a giant compromise.

For some of us, having 100.0% of the capability makes a lot more sense than 300%. I daily ride a Multistrada because its a comfortable fast bike. I *could* ride a 220hp+ Panigale but there's just no use for it on the road...

 

[Blaise]

First the Wrangler somehow isn't the at the top of off-road capability, and now maybe it is, but it's unnecessary.

Nobody has disputed the Wrangler's capability. It's in immensely capable vehicle.

So.... is there a place you need that level of capability in North America? Maybe in the Aussie outback, but I haven't been....

But yes, the capability is wasted for anyone outside an OHV park. I'm thrilled that it exists because in the future it may be the only capable 4x4 left. But I'm glad there are options (for now).

 

[mpinco]

And the issue is that it's too... nice? Because nobody has yet to give me a place you'd actually need wrangler-rubicon-levels levels of capability. Outside the Rubicon.......

Many Colorado trails have an easy path and a hard path. I mentioned Road 21. Sure, you can drive the easy path but what is the fun in that? Think of Interstatephobia. You can drive down I70 all day long or you can take the back roads through rural America and enjoy the drive much more.

 

[Blaise]

OK - so what's listed as an 'extreme jeep/buggy trail.' I haven't been on 21 but from what I've found that's what it is. AND THATS FINE.

Like you guys stated before - there are people who like exploring the back country and there's people who just want to see how far they can push on extreme obstacles. I don't have any hate for the latter, why so much hate for the former?

Have any of you tried talking to the average Rubicon, T4R, ZR2, etc owner? Most won't even go down a forest road because they don't want to scratch it. Even people like myself are the vast minority. What you see below is a tiny tiny tiny subset of that - which makes up approximately 0% of a base of actual customers who would buy a vehicle new. Jeep has done an incredible job of capturing this market... again I don't see anything wrong with that, so what's with all the hate for 'upmarket' crowd?!?

 

[EricTyrrell]

So, you basically prefer a pickup.

... and a less complicated and better built vehicle. I'd take a utilitarian SUV with a trailer as well, but they don't exist anymore. The Bronco might change that. We'll see.

You were the one who tried to argue that they were no good by arguing it was "only women driving them" in your neck of the woods. That is unquestionably to do about image.

Not quite. My position is that how we see them used is telling. It's telling of where the market finds them useful or not.

And, yet, you and others continue to use the Wrangler as the perfect example of a good offroad vehicle, even though it can't tow or carry anything.

It's is a great off-road vehicle; that's undeniable other than to vehicular-flat-earthers. However, it doesn't possess the differentiating advantages of the Defender. It never has, and that's OK.

 

[TrekkerOutdoors]

Of course luxury and function are capable, but don't pretend there's isn't a compromise. There always is. If there wasn't, modern Land Rovers would be taking a bite out of the Jeep and truck market, but they don't. Plenty at the mall though. Drive around and look at where you see them and where you don't. The reality is right in front of us.

The fact that people actually drive around town in LR's, and the mall no less, obviously has you triggered and butthurt. I quit caring about what others think of my LR a long time ago, and I will do the same in the 2020 Defender.

 

[Pilat]

Many Colorado trails have an easy path and a hard path. I mentioned Road 21. Sure, you can drive the easy path but what is the fun in that? Think of Interstatephobia. You can drive down I70 all day long or you can take the back roads through rural America and enjoy the drive much more.

You can take the back roads through rural America on a Honda Civic or a bicycle. Having a modified-for-rock-crawling vehicle is not even close to necessary. And using such a vehicle wouldn't be as comfortable as said Civic.

Take a look at that picture Blaise posted of the rock crawler. Yeah, there is no way that would be legal most places - even on back roads - and there is no way it would not suck for actually driving over crawling speeds.

 

[Blaise]

It's is a great off-road vehicle; that's undeniable other than to vehicular-flat-earthers. However, it doesn't possess the differentiating advantages of the Defender. It never has, and that's OK.

Same goes for the Lux-Rovers. The Wrangler has never had the advantages they have. And that's OK.

See? We can all get along?

 

[EricTyrrell]

Well, the open air in Northern Europe aren't fun in a Wrangler. It can't tow and can't carry anything, the quality is abysmal, and it is generally a toy.

That's fine, and why with a modular platform you could be offered the hard-top option, and those in warmer climate can enjoy a rag-top model. Correct, it can't carry more than is typically needed for fun, quality is decent now in the JL, but not excellent, and yes it is a toy; that's the point! It's clearly not for you. Nothing wrong with that.

You want those solid axles so you can modify the vehicle and inflate your "image" in the right circles? Yeah, those options aren't the best.

You know that's not always necessary, and many people realize that. It's also a person's right to modify their vehicle to fit their desires or unique circumstances.

 

[Pilat]

... and a less complicated and better built vehicle. I'd take a utilitarian SUV with a trailer as well, but they don't exist anymore. The Bronco might change that. We'll see.

Yeah, you lost me when you tried to claim the Defender wasn't a pickup and therefore bad. Now, you add that a pickup or utilitarian SUV using old tech and old production methods (remember, you used to bring forth the Wrangler as a great of this), is somehow "better built".

Not quite. My position is that how we see them used is telling. It's telling of where the market finds them useful or not.

Disingenuous back pedalling.

It's is a great off-road vehicle; that's undeniable other than to vehicular-flat-earthers. However, it doesn't possess the differentiating advantages of the Defender. It never has, and that's OK.

Yes, if you mod it for obstacle courses. Going down a path fast? Not so much. Doing anything above crawling speeds - even on a dry, flat dirt road, and the solid axles is detrimental to the handling (loads and loads of unsprung weight).

But, yeah, if you want a toy you can trailer to various places and have fun, it's great. But in that case (and in these times), I think I'd prefer an electric (yes!) trials bike. I can go faster through the obstacles and do more of them, you don't have to tow it, and it's much easier to get to and from various places. Hell, it could even fit on the back of the new Defender if I had the urge to rock crawl/obstacle courses.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Same goes for the Lux-Rovers. The Wrangler has never had the advantages they have. And that's OK.

See? We can all get along?

I agree. However, the issue is that the luxury Defender, by definition is an oxymoron.

 

[Pilat]

That's fine, and why with a modular platform you could be offered the hard-top option, and those in warmer climate can enjoy a rag-top model. Correct, it can't carry more than is typically needed for fun, quality is decent now in the JL, but not excellent, and yes it is a toy; that's the point! It's clearly not for you. Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, I get it. You want it to "be different" than modern vehicles. You want it to be a Wrangler, using old tech, old engineering, old everything. You don't want it to take advantage of modern anything. All so it can "differentiate" itself. Not because it would make it a more capable vehicle, but so it can be "different".

You know that's not always necessary, and many people realize that. It's also a person's right to modify their vehicle to fit their desires or unique circumstances.

Of course it is not always necessary. But you're using rock crawling arguments, so I gave a response to that. And, yes, anyone can modify their toy vehicle as they see fit (unless you actually want to legally use it on the road, going places. If so, most places have rules on how much you can modify and what). That is not the point. You can still have and modify your wrangler. Hell, you can buy an old Defender and do the same.

Just stop conflating rock crawling with "offroad". Although Offroad includes Rock Crawling (barely - it's more a closed obstacle course), Rock Crawling does not mean that nothing else is "off road".