New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[mpinco]

IS without cross-linked air suspension is just run of the mill trail limited suspension. It's either both or solid axles.

 

[Pilat]

IS without cross-linked air suspension is just run of the mill trail limited suspension. It's either both or solid axles.

For rock-crawling. Maybe.

 

[EricTyrrell]

I already said that anything above crawling speeds, and IS is better. THat's the application for solid axles. That and building as cheaply as possible. If you want that, yeah, solid axles win. Suspension evolves, and the problems of solid axles have already been solved many, many decades ago. It's called going to independent suspension.

As speed increases there is a correlation with the advantages of IS. Nothing new. What you don't understand is that even at 60mph, the physics advantages don't outweigh the non-physics disadvtantages in all applications.
I If you think solid axles are a dead end, that the work is done, you're not very creative. LR was creative once.

Find me some.

I did.

Any vehicle travelling at more than crawling speed will benefit from independent suspension.

Even a dump truck will benefit.

Correct, yet they're not used, for good reason, and should be on the Defender either.

I do understand the Defender, and I understand engineering. You want it to be a copy of a Wrangler with not only solid rear axle, but a solid front axle. That is as ridiculous as wanting to go back to solid tyres.

The Defender IS a copy of the Wrangler if you are versed on the history. Hmm I wonder why the look nearly identical..

LOL. You obviously don't know. My identity is not tied to a car. And once again you're projecting: You are so tied up in the wannabe rock crawling scene you think that your ignorance of suspensions are somehow arguments in themselves. You are the one who doesn't think LRs are manly enough "people driving them around where I live are all women", and you're the one who dislikes the looks because they're not "manly" enough, whatever that means.
So it looks like, once again, you're being disingenuous when accusing others of using a car as an "identity".

I have no interest in rock crawling. I have an interest in affordable, simple, capable, contemporary technology. If I'm "tied up" in anything, it's dishonest appropriation. Looking forward to the Bronco. We'll see if Ford gets it.

 

[EricTyrrell]

For rock-crawling. Maybe.

Those (IS, non-Air) soft-roader SUVs already exist. LR isn't offering any unique value there.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Okay, let me ask you this:
How do you solve the problem of the two wheels being connected and the huge amounts of unsprung weight because of that?
Come now. What's the solution?

You either
1. Live with it, because it's not a big deal in all types of vehicles.
2. You refine a better solution. You cannot decouple the wheels, that compromise will always exist with a solid axle, but you can reduce unsprung weight with material science and engineering, just as LR began to in the P38.

Still waiting for that list of solid front axled overlander vehicles. Or are you willing to admit by now that you made that up too?

This is the 2nd time I've re-quoted myself for you.. -->

Off the top of my head.. Every coil sprung LR, pre-barbie G-wagen, FJ80, most 70 series, Wrangler, all HD trucks.

 

[EricTyrrell]

************************, you can't tell the difference between an example and "relying on a single data point? You think that by giving an example, there can be no other data points?

He presented one data point. You tell the board to imagine others and see where it gets you. His example wasn't even about IS. This is just too devolved at this point.

 

[EricTyrrell]

More rage against the machine..

 

[nickw]

Good read about Oshkosh IS developed for HD application and a 70% offroad and 30% use profile:

Oshkosh TAK-4 Independent Suspension System - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Blaise]

Those same people kicked and screamed when the 911 was changed too.

Do you not remember the cries when they went water cooled? Or when they introduced PDK? Or electric power steering?

Progress is progress... by the way 2x nice quoting all old vehicles as having solid axles, minus the wranger. HD trucks are not in discussion here.

 

[Pilat]

As speed increases there is a correlation with the advantages of IS. Nothing new. What you don't understand is that even at 60mph, the physics advantages don't outweigh the non-physics disadvtantages in all applications.

You're wrong and you pulled that number out of nowhere. If you knew about unsprung weight and the actual problems of having the two wheels connected, you would know that the IS very quickly have an advantage. If you don't turn or correct the vehicle, the advantage happens later.

I If you think solid axles are a dead end, that the work is done, you're not very creative. LR was creative once.

Again: How do you solve the problem of the wheels being connected and the loads of unsprung weight as a result?

I did.

No you didn't. You know we can go back and see, right? We know about the Wrangler, so that is one. Show us some "overlander" vehicles with solid axles at the front. Rock crawlers don't count.

Correct, yet they're not used, for good reason, and should be on the Defender either.

Yes, and that "good reason" for a dump truck is that it's cheaper to have solid axles. And it's a commercial vehicle, so safety or handling is not a priority in any way.

The Defender IS a copy of the Wrangler if you are versed on the history. Hmm I wonder why the look nearly identical..

Yes, originally from the series 1. However, they kept the solid axles, it didn't sell, and it didn't handle on anything over crawling speeds. Once again, you're trying to pretend that what they did in 1948 was perfect, and they should go back to that. Screw engineering, modern materials, and the advance of knowledge.

I have no interest in rock crawling.

Yet your arguments are all derived from the notion of "what they use for rock crawling will be perfect in any and all situtations".

I have an interest in affordable, simple, capable, contemporary technology. If I'm "tied up" in anything, it's dishonest appropriation.

Yes, you're right. You're being dishonest.
Apart from that, you're not interested in any of that. You want them to make a "modern" Jeep Wrangler with technology, knowledge, and advancements no further forward than 1948.
How do you solve the engineering problem of unsprung weight due to the wheels being connected?
The engineers at Land Rover (as does any engineer) know: You detach them from each other.

Those (IS, non-Air) soft-roader SUVs already exist. LR isn't offering any unique value there.

Yes, they do. He was talking about how they were only worth something if linked. My point was that unless you're rock crawling, linking them isn't necessary.

You either
1. Live with it, because it's not a big deal in all types of vehicles.

That's not an answer. I was talking how you ENGINEER yourself out having the two wheels connected and the huge amount of unsprung weight as a result (plus the fact that if one jolts, the other reacts too).

2. You refine a better solution. You cannot decouple the wheels, that compromise will always exist with a solid axle, but you can reduce unsprung weight with material science and engineering, just as LR began to in the P38.

Nope. That's still not solving the problem of them being connected (one side hit something, and the other is affected too), and it's not solving the problem of the massive amounts of unsprung weight.
You can't solve any of that without decoupling them. It doesn't matter how much modern tech you throw at it - at best it can alleviate some of the problems, but it can't solve them.

This is the 2nd time I've re-quoted myself for you.. -->

Off the top of my head.. Every coil sprung LR, pre-barbie G-wagen, FJ80, most 70 series, Wrangler, all HD trucks.

So actual, Heavy Duty trucks, old cars, and the Wrangler. I'm amazed you didn't mention the old Defender or Series LR.
Still waiting for a list of reasonable recent cars that uses a solid front and when you say "most 70 series", you must mean the very old ones of the series. There's a reason the G-wagon and more recent 70 series doesn't have a solid axle. The handling was horrendous at anything above crawling speeds.

He presented one data point. You tell the board to imagine others and see where it gets you. His example wasn't even about IS. This is just too devolved at this point.

It doesn't matter that you continue to repeat the lie: An example, after having explained these things to you ad nauseam doesn't mean it's just "a single data point". And you now admit it wasn't about IS, yet you used that example as the "single data point" about IS previously.

 

[Pilat]

More rage against the machine..

View attachment 552318

LOL, what the hell is the point of posting that?
What do you think that proves?

 

[EricTyrrell]

LOL, what the hell is the point of posting that?
What do you think that proves?

This is the rage thread, is it not?

 

[Pilat]

This is the rage thread, is it not?

Yes, it is. But taking screenshots of people's comments on other sites? Really?

 

[DieselRanger]

So while LR is busy dropping flamboyant glider-pilots into the back of D5s, and unloading tea-sets from Luxfender side-lockers, Tesla unveils a stainless bullet-proof truck featuring a polarizing but unforgettable design. Then in the reveal, while LR's flower-arranging designer waxes poetically about the few concessions they made to the original, Tesla takes a sledge hammer and steel balls to it.

Don't get me wrong; it's not what the new Defender should be at all, but it's refreshing to see a manufacturer that has a spine and can design something interesting.

Yeah, and then they broke its supposedly unbreakable windows, much to Iron Man's chagrin.

I'd take a Rivian over this POS Tesla. But I'd take a Defender over both. Gonna need a huge solar farm and a loooooooooong time to get you out of the back 40 when you run out of juice, rather than a friend with a 5gal can of Dino Juice.

 

[EricTyrrell]

HD trucks are not in discussion here.

They have been for several pages, and he specifically asked for solid axle overlanders. From this very site..