New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Pilat]

I'm not saying bandaids or restomods. I'm saying actual investment in engineering, materials, suppliers and production. The 35+ years that LR ignored. Appears the Ineos Granadier will be the new Defender.

And they finally did invest in all that and made a thoroughly modern Defender, taking advantage of new tech and materials - both for production and for the actual end product.. Not simply band-aiding the old one (nor the production methods for that one).

What Arkonik did to the old defender definitely falls into "restomod" territory, and even at that price, it is still just band aids on the old design. You don't have to use the words "band aid" or "restomod" in order for that to be a topic touched upon in your arguments.

You want LR to have "upgraded" the production methods to the OLD Defender, so they could produce the OLD Defender cheaper. Seam welding the entire vehicle (as is usually done in proper restomods to gain some stiffness) rather than the old tack welding takes a lot of work. Things like that are best if you have an open wallet with loads of money in it. It will never be cheap.

Edit: Good luck with the Grenadier. It will likely be much more expensive than is reasonable. It sounds like they're describing a 1960s Defender or Jeep.

 

[Blaise]

I'm a big Toyota fan but I'm well aware that there are a number of other excellent 4wd vehicles out there so I'm not merely a blind loyalist. Which is why I've owned LR, Jeep, GM, and other import brands besides Toyota over the years. But the experience with my Toyotas has always been superior which is why they are my personal "go-to" brand of choice. I would sincerely consider another brand if I felt there was one that exceeded at meeting my needs more than something offered by Toyota. In terms of exploration and 4wd uses, I have not found anything that does, and I'm not just talking about capability, but the complete experience. There are other vehicles that might be better in one area or another but nothing has delivered the complete package for me as well as Toyota. Others may have a similar experience with a different manufacturer, and that's perfectly acceptable.

Excellent post. And good for you. One thing people don't realize is that the the resale on Toyotas is so insane in the PNW that I could buy THREE LR3s for the price of the same year/mileage T4R.

For me, my experience has been that the cost/performance of the modern rover works the best for me. For some, a Jeep will work the best. I too have had american and Japanese trucks as well.

And guess what? Nothing wrong with any of those options...

 

[Box Rocket]

Excellent post. And good for you. One thing people don't realize is that the the resale on Toyotas is so insane in the PNW that I could buy THREE LR3s for the price of the same year/mileage T4R.

For me, my experience has been that the cost/performance of the modern rover works the best for me. For some, a Jeep will work the best. I too have had american and Japanese trucks as well.

And guess what? Nothing wrong with any of those options...

Yes, if resale value is one of your purchase considerations, Toyotas are hard to beat.

 

[Blaise]

If you're buying new it is likely only 2nd to buying a wrangler. If you're buying used... Toyotas are a terrible deal here. I have a friend who recently sold his '99 Tacoma with 200k miles for NINE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS.

The PNW is insanity for Toyotas. There's a reason they ended up naming it the Tacoma...

 

[Box Rocket]

I sold my 2003 Tacoma a few years ago with ~200k miles for $15k. Granted it had some stuff done to it. Tacomas hold their value better than almost anything else on the market.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Well, what Toyota is doing is called reliability. I get in the 4Runner, turn the key and drive, no $6000 a year repair bills, no worrying about eas dropping to the bumpstops because of a corroded can-bus cable, no more Christmas in July on my dashboard, etc ... it's refreshing actually. The D1 was my first LR almost 20 years ago and there is one in the garage which I enjoy taking out for a run but pulling my trailer, heading out mountain biking or just knowing I'll make it to work without a flatbed involved, I'm very happy with the T4R. Do I get a bit of envy when I see a D4 go by, sure, but then I think how much I'm saving, even on fuel and I'm content again

Reliability is definitely part of the attraction to Toyota. One thing that is often overlooked in the current market is what Toyota has been incredibly successful at. That is that they have marketed in a way that is very attractive to younger buyers and have done it with "lifestyle". They have taken a couple of vehicles (Tacoma and 4Runner) and have produced them at a price point attainable by younger buyers who have graduated from buying cheap, beater cars that was all they could afford and can now afford something new and nicer, but has the 'adventurous" image they are attracted to. There's no doubt there are thousands of cookie cutter Tacoma and 4Runner builds out there and it's a bit of a joke for many that anyone into "overlanding" these days must have a Tacoma or 4Runner. This is HUGE for Toyota! They have tapped into a massive demographic of new, young buyers and are making lifelong Toyota customers out of many of them. From a business point of view it's an incredible accomplishment that is going to pay dividends for Toyota down the road.

The LR has never really targeted that market, nor do I think they should to be honest. But by capturing a large part of the market early, such as Toyota has, a degree of brand loyalty over time is the result. This can only have a negative impact on other manufacturers like LR or Jeep or Chevrolet who will need to develop something superior and unique enough, as well as more capable and reliable offroad to lure loyal owners away from Toyota.

I'm a big Toyota fan but I'm well aware that there are a number of other excellent 4wd vehicles out there so I'm not merely a blind loyalist. Which is why I've owned LR, Jeep, GM, and other import brands besides Toyota over the years. But the experience with my Toyotas has always been superior which is why they are my personal "go-to" brand of choice. I would sincerely consider another brand if I felt there was one that exceeded at meeting my needs more than something offered by Toyota. In terms of exploration and 4wd uses, I have not found anything that does, and I'm not just talking about capability, but the complete experience. There are other vehicles that might be better in one area or another but nothing has delivered the complete package for me as well as Toyota. Others may have a similar experience with a different manufacturer, and that's perfectly acceptable.

Can't argue with any of this logic, not one bit! Great posts all around. It is almost a better financial decision to buy a new Toyota over a used one; resale is always in the seller's market for a Taco or 4Runner. That's a great problem to have IMO! lol

 

[mpinco]

Is it "Defender" hate or is it "casualcore" hate that the new Luxury Defender walks up to?

NYIAS 2017: Toyota FT-4X Concept – Mad for Millennials

"......Toyota claims this concept “brings ‘casualcore’ to Gen Y city dwellers.” Hey, it’s that word again! Now, here’s the definition from the automaker:

“A shift from multiday, extreme, high-effort excursions to brief, unplanned, casual adventures is an overwhelming reality for Generation Y. Millennials are fond of the outdoors, but operate almost always indoors. They enjoy venturing into new neighborhoods and national parks, but hardly plan ahead. Their countless interactions on social media bring inspiration. It is the busyness of their nonstop daily lives that pushed them past the precipice of “liking” a digital snapshot into the realm of creating their own, in reality. Their adventures begin curbside, in a parking structure, or in the depths of an underground garage.”

Had enough yet? Bent over the toilet bowl? Sick of automaker-hired PR strategists making target audiences seem like precious zoo animals with a lifestyle you want to punch? Well, so are we........"



CasualCore!

 

[Victory_Overland]

casual core; hahaha, love it. Everyone has to have a title these days to feel special and safe!

 

[AbleGuy]

casual core; hahaha, love it. Everyone has to have a title these days to feel special and safe!

ooooh! Better watch it... the Grandpa shamers and the OK Boomers here are going to draw down on you for that one, cause, you know....truth hurts!

 

[Twistnshout]

Reliability is definitely part of the attraction to Toyota. One thing that is often overlooked in the current market is what Toyota has been incredibly successful at. That is that they have marketed in a way that is very attractive to younger buyers and have done it with "lifestyle". They have taken a couple of vehicles (Tacoma and 4Runner) and have produced them at a price point attainable by younger buyers who have graduated from buying cheap, beater cars that was all they could afford and can now afford something new and nicer, but has the 'adventurous" image they are attracted to. There's no doubt there are thousands of cookie cutter Tacoma and 4Runner builds out there and it's a bit of a joke for many that anyone into "overlanding" these days must have a Tacoma or 4Runner. This is HUGE for Toyota! They have tapped into a massive demographic of new, young buyers and are making lifelong Toyota customers out of many of them. From a business point of view it's an incredible accomplishment that is going to pay dividends for Toyota down the road.

The LR has never really targeted that market, nor do I think they should to be honest. But by capturing a large part of the market early, such as Toyota has, a degree of brand loyalty over time is the result. This can only have a negative impact on other manufacturers like LR or Jeep or Chevrolet who will need to develop something superior and unique enough, as well as more capable and reliable offroad to lure loyal owners away from Toyota.

I'm a big Toyota fan but I'm well aware that there are a number of other excellent 4wd vehicles out there so I'm not merely a blind loyalist. Which is why I've owned LR, Jeep, GM, and other import brands besides Toyota over the years. But the experience with my Toyotas has always been superior which is why they are my personal "go-to" brand of choice. I would sincerely consider another brand if I felt there was one that exceeded at meeting my needs more than something offered by Toyota. In terms of exploration and 4wd uses, I have not found anything that does, and I'm not just talking about capability, but the complete experience. There are other vehicles that might be better in one area or another but nothing has delivered the complete package for me as well as Toyota. Others may have a similar experience with a different manufacturer, and that's perfectly acceptable.

Good post. Our 4runner has been very reliable up until it hit 200k...aside from the lame timing belt replacement at each 90k. That didnt make me happy. lol Still the motor sounded like a sewing machine, interior looks almost new even now, gas mileage acceptable, fun to drive, easy to maneuver and parks easily. It's 4wd prowess, is meh. Great break over numbers, but hampered by its IFS and a not so low low range.

I really dont think toyota pricing is all that great, and not sure they market to the young-inz either. You might be right, I just dont see it. I think they market to everyone who wants a vehicle that is considered dependable, and that encompasses about everyone. Love toyota or hate em it's one thing everyone agrees with.

I've been in jeeps since 1983. I didnt buy them for reliability, but more for capability. Good news is I never had a problem with any accept my 88 cherokee which was all covered under warranty. Still I'm not brand loyal, if something is better in capability I am more than happy to jump ship.

I was really hoping the new defender would blow jeep away (same for the coming new bronco), but it doesnt appear so... at least on paper and the videos I've seen. I REALLY want to be wrong on this but thinking not. Crossing fingers here.

 

[Twistnshout]

I'm not saying bandaids or restomods. I'm saying actual investment in engineering, materials, suppliers and production. The 35+ years that LR ignored. Appears the Ineos Granadier will be the new Defender.

Yup, there isnt much left of the REAL defender. The beauty of the old setup was utility and the easy ability to inject the owners personality into it.

They should have took lessons from jeep wrangler. They used the old and injected the new to make a pretty fine vehicle that the faithful arent complaining about...at least by comparison. LR should have put more Defender into the new defender.

Still there are some things I do like about it. Seems the motors are pretty stout as is the payload and trailering. 18 inch wheels suck but bigger brakes dont.

 

[Buliwyf]

Ground clearance? Looks like nope.

 

[REDROVER]

Lmaoo hahaha

 

[DieselRanger]

Ground clearance? Looks like nope.

In Access Height as shown, you would be correct - there's little ground clearance. Good thing you don't always need it when parked. Also useful to lock in access height when driving through a parking garage.

I did LOL at the "check deployable towbar" graphic. Do you squeeze gently at the base while vigorously tugging back and forth?

That's the electronically deployable towbar, BTW - I don't think that's an option in the US. All other Landies have that option in the UK.

 

[Buliwyf]

So it shrinks back into the LR whem a switch is thrown?

Need gif.