New GMRS Handheld Two-Way Radios Now Available

[dreadlocks]

you could use em as talk around I dont care, but thats still duplex.. but ppl gotta turn on flipping the freqs and understand how it works or they wont just go buy a radio, ******** the license and then be using these resources.

its a chicken and egg thing, if Midland hadda implement duplex repeater functionality to sell radios with access to those freqs then watch how quickly they start selling a repeater base station.. gotta offer the donkey a carrot or the ass wont move.

 

[MOguy]

/// Personal Opinion Disclaimer: these are my thoughts, not necessarily the official logic of the FCC ///

There's a myriad of reasons, but to some extent it kind of boils down to, "with more power comes more responsibility." Very simplistically, the more power you're dealing with the more "skin in the game" you should have, whether that's dollars or hours.

For FRS and MURS, where you can buy a radio, walk out the door and start using it, you have basically 0 skin in the game. There's no training or money related to the actual service involved, so there's basically nothing to make people feel somewhat responsible for the appropriate use of the system.

For GMRS, there's a little more power (this relates to antennas as well) and there's a little at stake, so the hope if you, as a user, feel a little more responsible to treat the system and it's user with respect.

For Amateur Radio there's even more involved: the time and effort to actually learn in depth how things work, both from a technical perspective and hopefully from an etiquette perspective. So maybe people who've put that effort in deserve access to more spectrum and are more likely to use more power appropriately.

I don't know, that's my take on it. Another explanation: different strokes for different folks. Some people don't wanna pay and some are willing to. Those who are willing to should get more than those who aren't. And in general the thing people want are spectrum and power... so... that's where they draw the dividing lines.

What do you mean use the powed appropriately? If I hunt more powerful rifle my hunting licences isn't more expensive.

If I am using the radio what does it matter on the power? I do understand why the need to control what frequencies used but power? It is not like more power will wear out the frequencies.

 

[MOguy]

My understanding is repeaters are put up by individuals or groups of people, not by the government. People can lock the repeater so those who don't have the right permission or access can't use them correct?

 

[camp4x4]

you could use em as talk around I dont care, but thats still duplex..

You're transmitting on the repeater output frequency... and listening on the transmitter output frequency... that's simplex...

As for selling radios to people who don't have licenses... yeah... there's an argument to be made there.. but its probably a loosing one with most people. Like MOguy...

People can buy ham radios without a license... and hams ********** about it all the time too... best you can do is educate people and hope they see the value in learning and investing in the service instead of just take, take, take.

Now, you know I'd LOVE to see Midland make a proper repeater, and for more people to put them up. Hopefully with all the new radios they're putting out - rebadged or otherwise - they're headed in that direction... but, repeaters are both an investment and a responsibility... once you get to that level, lotta people just jump over to the ham world for the freedom...

 

[dreadlocks]

I do understand why the need to control what frequencies used but power? It is not like more power will wear out the frequencies.

Uh yeah, since I pay money and have more power I get priority over the usage.. You cant overpower me when your limited to the 2W free limit.. also since FRS is limited to walkie-talkie handhelds, they dont really need more than 2W because its plenty of power for a 6ft tall person to reach the horizon 3m away.

 

[dreadlocks]

You're transmitting on the repeater output frequency... and listening on the transmitter output frequency... that's simplex...

Uh thats not talk around, its when you swap the duplex.. you transmit on the repeater output frequency and receive on the transmitter input frequency.. its duplex and used so if your far enough away you cant key up the repeater you can mebe summon someone tuned to the repeater who's within your range.

 

[dreadlocks]

People can lock the repeater so those who don't have the right permission or access can't use them correct?

You can put a tone on it and hope nobody has access to a tone decoder, but thats the extent of it.. if someone uses your repeater without permission not much you can do but shut it down.

 

[MOguy]

Uh yeah, since I pay money and have more power I get priority over the usage.. You cant overpower me when your limited to the 2W free limit.. also since FRS is limited to walkie-talkie handhelds, they dont really need more than 2W because its plenty of power for a 6ft tall person to reach the horizon 3m away.

If I want to go camping in the area where there's no cell phone and I want to have communications with people I'm with what would keep somebody from setting repeaters so they could cover down on the area there camping in. When I was in the army with set up a retrans, is that similar to what a repeater is.

I live in a very rural area where cell phone coverage is limited. How possible would it be to set up repeaters so you can talk with those you want to talk with over a radio?

 

[camp4x4]

What do you mean use the powed appropriately? If I hunt more powerful rifle my hunting licences isn't more expensive.

If I am using the radio what does it matter on the power? I do understand why the need to control what frequencies used but power? It is not like more power will wear out the frequencies.

Your gun analogy isn't quite on target ... since radios interact with other users of the system, there's always concern about how many other users of the system you're interacting with. Power = range (VERY simplistically) and range = more people to potentially interact with. Think of it like paying for more deer tags... ?

Uh thats not talk around, its when you swap the duplex.. you transmit on the repeater output frequency and receive on the transmitter input frequency.. its duplex and used so if your far enough away you cant key up the repeater you can mebe summon someone tuned to the repeater who's within your range.

Nope, that's not talk around...

"Mobile stations may have an option to select a "talk around" mode to transmit and receive on the same frequency; this is sometimes used for local communication within range of the mobile units." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_repeater

"The talk around function sets the transmit and receive frequencies to the same frequency for communicating transceiver-to-transceiver." - https://www.buytwowayradios.com/two-way-radio-features#talk-around

 

[camp4x4]

If I want to go camping in the area where there's no cell phone and I want to have communications with people I'm with what would keep somebody from setting repeaters so they could cover down on the area there camping in. When I was in the army with set up a retrans, is that similar to what a repeater is.

I live in a very rural area where cell phone coverage is limited. How possible would it be to set up repeaters so you can talk with those you want to talk with over a radio?

Absolutely nothing. That's exactly the point of repeaters. In fact there's a real good chance there's existing ham radio repeaters that people have put up for the community to use out of the goodness (nerdiness) of their hearts... Sometimes clubs put them up... some times individuals... but 9/10 times they're free and clear to use to people with licenses.

As Dreads alluded to, GMRS repeaters are like hens teeth though... and often restricted to "permitted users only." The reasons behind this are various and get into FCC technicalities...

 

[dreadlocks]

@MOguy you totally can with GMRS, I have one in my trailer.. You take two radios, usually high power mobile ones.. tune one to listen on one frequency, the other to transmit on the offset frequency.. then wire the output of one into the input of another and a bit of extra circuitry thats usually contained in a repeater controller.. finally you hook both radios antenna ports up to a duplexer that separates the 2 frequencies and lets you use 1 antenna and then you have your radios broadcast on the repeater input and listen on the repeater output frequencies.

@camp4x4, thats not how talk around worked on my kenwood commercial radios.. yes it allows direct transceiver to transceiver communication using the same frequencies as the repeater, but if you transmit on a repeater input nobody in duplex mode will hear it.. only the repeater is supposed to be listening.. If it cant hear you anymore, you reverse your duplex so you transmit on the same frequency as the repeater output and can directly talk to people on a repeater by "talking arround" the repeater.. otherwise you just use a simplex channel.

 

[MOguy]

Your gun analogy isn't quite on target ... since radios interact with other users of the system, there's always concern about how many other users of the system you're interacting with. Power = range (VERY simplistically) and range = more people to potentially interact with. Think of it like paying for more deer tags... ?



Nope, that's not talk around...

"Mobile stations may have an option to select a "talk around" mode to transmit and receive on the same frequency; this is sometimes used for lo

Absolutely nothing. That's exactly the point of repeaters. In fact there's a real good chance there's existing ham radio repeaters that people have put up for the community to use out of the goodness (nerdiness) of their hearts... Sometimes clubs put them up... some times individuals... but 9/10 times they're free and clear to use to people with licenses.

As Dreads alluded to, GMRS repeaters are like hens teeth though... and often restricted to "permitted users only." The reasons behind this are various and get into FCC technicalities...

I found a map online that showed where repeaters were,none where my area.

My thoughts on using it for camping. I set up camp I have some sort,of repeater I place between camp and where my kids are can go fishing. Is this realistic? The GMRS license is less than $100 bucks and a couple to license the family for many years.


Setting on up to cover my area may be more of a task and expense than then I am willing to deal with.

 

[camp4x4]

Setting on up to cover my area may be more of a task and expense than then I am willing to deal with.

Yeah, it can be... which is why a lot of us think Midland needs to step up and make a relatively plug-and-play repeater for the Overland/Offroad crowd...

@camp4x4, thats not how talk around worked on my kenwood commercial radios.. yes it allows direct transceiver to transceiver communication using the same frequencies as the repeater, but if you transmit on a repeater input nobody in duplex mode will hear it.. only the repeater is supposed to be listening, so you reverse your duplex so you transmit on the same frequency as the repeater output and can directly talk to people on a repeater by "talking arround" the repeater.. otherwise you just use a simplex channel.

Okay, so I diagrammed the differences... there's pluses and minuses both ways... the way I'm talking about the two parties doing "talk around" can still hear repeater traffic, but are talking around the repeater to each other... this has always been the explanation I've heard... down side is neither are actually talking on the repeater any more.

The way you say Kenwood did it, then you've still got one party talking on the repeater, but the "talk around" party can't hear the other repeater traffic, only the other person. In this case only 1 person is truly talking around the repeater. Also in this case people on the repeater only hear half the conversation...

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this...

 

[MOguy]

Uh yeah, since I pay money and have more power I get priority over the usage.. You cant overpower me when your limited to the 2W free limit.. also since FRS is limited to walkie-talkie handhelds, they dont really need more than 2W because its plenty of power for a 6ft tall person to reach the horizon 3m away.

Evened licensed you can't use so much power you step on others can you?

 

[dreadlocks]

@MOguy thats how I use it, I got a toy hauler and setup base camp.. I got a bunch of simple idiot proof radios already setup, they are on a lanyard with an emergency whistle.. everyone takes one when they leave camp and does a radio check on the way out just to make sure its on right channel and working.. ive got a good antenna on the trailer and its up high, it receives when the handhelds frequently wont..

example I went out early last year to Pitkin area with just the handhelds, everyone got a stomach bug.. I'm a 100y away from the camper inside a vault toilet, wife's inside my aluminum camper.. I call for help cuz I'm desperate for TP wife just hears a scratch on the radio in the camper.. ******** outta luck.. went back later that season, parked farther away from the toilet by a few sites and repeated the test.. instead of my 3w HT having to penetrate a brick ******** house and an aluminum trailer, it just had to get a lil signal to my 13ft high, 3ft tall repeater antenna from the ******** house.. not a problem, it re-broadcasted it at like ~20W back to my wife and she heard me clear as day..

I'm now putting a mobile rig in my tow vehicle.. if we drive off to a fishing hole and the HT's wont reach back to base camp I can fire up to 50w out of my rack mounted antenna and should have no problem asking the wife if she can bring me some sammiches and more beer.. and she just needs to carry a lil 3w radio around camp or walking dogs and still reach us further away..

Even if the Handheld cant reach back it can often hear the repeater, so if kids wonder off too far we can call em back into range pretty easy.. you can also tap button on HT every once and a while and if repeater gets keyed up it'll beep and you know your still in range., Ive got an ID timer that broadcasts my ID 15m after repeater is activated, my sons hear that and do a quick check in.. 'copy, still skipping rocks, all is well over' and the timer starts again.. mom is happy to let em wonder off with dog and be boys.. boys love walkie talkies that work, dad loves radios, dog gets wet.. everyone is happy.

If I'm transmitting 50W out my repeater and your limited to 2W, my TX will crush you and take priority on anyone listening's radio.. the receiver modulation locks onto the strongest signal when two are transmitting at same time, you hear this in your car when your between two stations equally and they fight back and forth stomping on each other til one signal wins over the other.

@camp4x4 that looks exactly right, the person in the middle would have to relay comms back to everyone else.. its really handy for emergency responders who are all on a repeater setup.. if for some reason they cant reach dispatch they can switch duplex, and ask if anyone can hear em and relay a message to dispatch.. or just reach those nearby responding to same incident directly.. these radios can only tune one channel at a time, so this allows you to break in and coordinate a simplex approach when everyone is in duplex mode but the repeater cant be keyed.