clydeps
Member
Well north I suspect. I know someone who just took delivery of a Bruder and tows it with a 79 series Landcruiser (not the one in the picture) and the Cruiser alone has nearly $200K in it.
New to campers and surprised by the high prices. How come a camper is half the cost of a car?
- Thread starter MM4Overland
- Start date
MM4Overland
Member
I am telling you ...someone must be either rich or nuts to spend 75k on that.
Even if I outsource most of the work I would still come ahead
At75k with half of the cost in labour it comes down to 234days at 20aud/h. That is 5-6 specialized trades at 46 days each working continously...that is RIDICULOUS. A t that pace you are producing no more than 8 of them per year.....that does not sound loke a business.
The product is sold across the world so... if the Australian min wage is what it is logic tells me that you can sell that only in countries were the min salary is above that or where there is plenty of rich ppl.
I guess they could be easily undercut by someone in China. If you enforce QA on them they would do a pretty good job so no mot everything chinese is crap...it is actually the outsourcing management that is crap in many cases
I would be curious to see how many they sell I bet you they will disappear as company very soon 2y max
200K in a rig??? The traveling is not the hobby here for sure but the car/buikd itself
Even if I outsource most of the work I would still come ahead
At75k with half of the cost in labour it comes down to 234days at 20aud/h. That is 5-6 specialized trades at 46 days each working continously...that is RIDICULOUS. A t that pace you are producing no more than 8 of them per year.....that does not sound loke a business.
The product is sold across the world so... if the Australian min wage is what it is logic tells me that you can sell that only in countries were the min salary is above that or where there is plenty of rich ppl.
I guess they could be easily undercut by someone in China. If you enforce QA on them they would do a pretty good job so no mot everything chinese is crap...it is actually the outsourcing management that is crap in many cases
I would be curious to see how many they sell I bet you they will disappear as company very soon 2y max
200K in a rig??? The traveling is not the hobby here for sure but the car/buikd itself
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tacollie
Glamper
Most people don't build their own stuff. It would be hard to find someone locally to do a one off job like that in a lot of areas. Part of what you're paying for is the expertise. That's clearly not worth much to you.
Even in the US $20/hr is pretty low for a fabricator. I know a guy in his mid twenties with 3 years of welding experience making $33/hr building trailers.
Even in the US $20/hr is pretty low for a fabricator. I know a guy in his mid twenties with 3 years of welding experience making $33/hr building trailers.
rruff
Explorer
For international travel I'd be looking at a Fuso or Isuzu. If you are wanting to get through tight places, these will do as well or better vs a Tacoma.
MM4Overland
Member
You are forgetting that the price includes the business margin so there is plenty of room to pay your guy if you outsource in a big city. You do not have to have the work done in the area where you live
These threads are always hilarious. The camper costs what it does because the market is willing to pay it. There has to be profit available to provide a financial incentive for people to enter the market building these things. The numbers are small, very small. Small builders are akin to farmers financially. In farming they say you buy retail, sell wholesale, and pay the freight both ways.
To the OP, I’m curious, what is or was your trade? Have you ever run a business, or been responsible for the financial performance of a business unit?
I acknowledge that things we want are often priced out of our reach. A Bruder would be awesome! I’m not willing to spend that much for that item, so I overhauled a used AT Chaser that was nearing its low point of value and put a used RTT on it.
That was still more than my parents could drop on a trailer, so they camp in the back of an old Suburban or in a tent. In the end, it can be about brand names to drop on videos you try to turn into cash, or it can be about getting out there. Don’t try to keep up with others and you’ll be happier.
To the OP, I’m curious, what is or was your trade? Have you ever run a business, or been responsible for the financial performance of a business unit?
I acknowledge that things we want are often priced out of our reach. A Bruder would be awesome! I’m not willing to spend that much for that item, so I overhauled a used AT Chaser that was nearing its low point of value and put a used RTT on it.
That was still more than my parents could drop on a trailer, so they camp in the back of an old Suburban or in a tent. In the end, it can be about brand names to drop on videos you try to turn into cash, or it can be about getting out there. Don’t try to keep up with others and you’ll be happier.
I agree OP is pitifully unrealistic.
Yes most Aussies going expo'ing in the outback are indeed "rich" compared to North Americans.
Not talking minimum wages either.
Due to their superior social safety nets, the standard of living "disposable spending" for skilled trades people like metal fabricators is higher than than the average lawyer here.
So $200+ K for toys is just NBD.
A new Ford F-350 by itself is over $150K
Yes most Aussies going expo'ing in the outback are indeed "rich" compared to North Americans.
Not talking minimum wages either.
Due to their superior social safety nets, the standard of living "disposable spending" for skilled trades people like metal fabricators is higher than than the average lawyer here.
So $200+ K for toys is just NBD.
A new Ford F-350 by itself is over $150K
Mickey Bitsko
Adventurer
Which specific model f350 do you speak of , 150k in US dollars?
I think the OP is missing a large factor in the cost of manufacturing, which is expertise. The reason a super complex Tacoma is $40K and the relatively simple Fleet + flatbed that goes on it is also $40K is that Toyota spent $1B on designing and building a production line with all the tooling, robots, jigs, fixtures, training and what not to allow them to build a Tacoma in 8 hours. Furthermore, Toyota has been doing this for decades and has spent billions in R&D to obtain the expertise necessary to build a production line to build a truck so efficiently, so they can sell it so cheaply. In order to be profitable, they need to sell 500,000 Tacomas to recoup the cost of the production lines, and to fund the R&D to make the next gen of Tacomas.
FWC doesn't have the capital or expertise to do this, so their campers are built very inefficiently by hand with semi-skilled labor. However, FWC still has expertise, they know how to put together their campers so they work fairly well and last a long time. They know what thickness tubing to use and the length of every tube, they know where the welds need to be, they know the geometry of the lift panels that works, they know exactly what wires go in each harness, and how long each wire needs to be. When they have built one, it is ready to go.
I DIYed my previous camper, which was a pop-top UZJ100. It took me way longer than expected, cost me more than expected, and then wasn't as nice as my current FWC. I had never built a pop-top land cruiser before, so I spent about 6 months of lunch breaks and evenings making sketches, researching components, finding suppliers, making schematics and CAD models to make sure things would fit. Once that was done, I spent another 3 months of evenings and weekends actually building the thing - making the new top, cutting out the roof, sewing the soft walls, making cabinets, running wires and hoses, painting and sanding. I then started using it and quickly realized as I had never built one of these before, many of my great designs didn't work as well as they should be and needed to be revised. So I spent a weekend or two a month for the next year re-doing all the things that could be improved. Now I (mostly) had fun doing much of this, so I didn't mind the time sunk, but even if paid myself half my salary rate, there must have been $25K of labor in that thing. If I were to build a second copy it would have been $10K, but I don't need two and it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.
Most folks who talk about how quick and easy it would be to build one of these, only think of the middle part - the time/cost to actually put it together. They ignore the countless hours figuring out what you actually want to build, and how you would actually build it, then the iterative process of re-engineering/fixing what you did build so it actually works the way you want. If you want to DIY, go for it, but realize it will be for the fun of it and really won't save you any money.
FWC doesn't have the capital or expertise to do this, so their campers are built very inefficiently by hand with semi-skilled labor. However, FWC still has expertise, they know how to put together their campers so they work fairly well and last a long time. They know what thickness tubing to use and the length of every tube, they know where the welds need to be, they know the geometry of the lift panels that works, they know exactly what wires go in each harness, and how long each wire needs to be. When they have built one, it is ready to go.
I DIYed my previous camper, which was a pop-top UZJ100. It took me way longer than expected, cost me more than expected, and then wasn't as nice as my current FWC. I had never built a pop-top land cruiser before, so I spent about 6 months of lunch breaks and evenings making sketches, researching components, finding suppliers, making schematics and CAD models to make sure things would fit. Once that was done, I spent another 3 months of evenings and weekends actually building the thing - making the new top, cutting out the roof, sewing the soft walls, making cabinets, running wires and hoses, painting and sanding. I then started using it and quickly realized as I had never built one of these before, many of my great designs didn't work as well as they should be and needed to be revised. So I spent a weekend or two a month for the next year re-doing all the things that could be improved. Now I (mostly) had fun doing much of this, so I didn't mind the time sunk, but even if paid myself half my salary rate, there must have been $25K of labor in that thing. If I were to build a second copy it would have been $10K, but I don't need two and it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.
Most folks who talk about how quick and easy it would be to build one of these, only think of the middle part - the time/cost to actually put it together. They ignore the countless hours figuring out what you actually want to build, and how you would actually build it, then the iterative process of re-engineering/fixing what you did build so it actually works the way you want. If you want to DIY, go for it, but realize it will be for the fun of it and really won't save you any money.
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I am not sure where you are getting this, have you lived and worked in Australia? The average wage for a welder/fabricator in oz is about $35/hour or about $70K a year. Now it is true that benefits (medical, superannuation etc) cost much less in oz, but that doesn't off set the higher cost of living (particularly housing, goods and travel), not to mention the much higher salary for a professional like a lawyer, which is about twice as much as a fabricator.
Yes but your family's health care, ability to survive if impoverished by an accident or when elderly, most of your kids' education, etc
are basically built into your taxes
leaving more for enjoying life in the good times.
Whereas a stateside couple trying to retire on less than say a mill is going to have a hard time of it.
Not sure where lawyers come into it?
My main point was "that Aussie example is not 'very expensive' by standards of non-USians" especially given the higher build quality.
Part of it is also that RVing in general is considered a low-status recreation by wealthier USians, so people get surprised by units costing $300K and more
are basically built into your taxes
leaving more for enjoying life in the good times.
Whereas a stateside couple trying to retire on less than say a mill is going to have a hard time of it.
Not sure where lawyers come into it?
My main point was "that Aussie example is not 'very expensive' by standards of non-USians" especially given the higher build quality.
Part of it is also that RVing in general is considered a low-status recreation by wealthier USians, so people get surprised by units costing $300K and more
MM4Overland
Member
My only message here is that the price is a rip off
Do I need to run a business to be able to say that?? I doubt!!
Do I believe that the price of the product has not connection whatsoever with the product costs ? YOU BET.
The price is set so because they can! Will this last ? Hell NO.
Two categories of ppl would pay 75K for Bruder: Morons/ppl who have no respect for their money or for the time spent to earn it and rich ppl. Place yourself where you think you belong.
I am in IT and FYI I did run my own one person business so I doubt that is relevant but here is your answer
Their first DNS record was like 2015, so they have been in business for 5 years or so
One note for the previous posters who keep mentioning the AUD cost of living etc etc. We are not interested in that as long as we do not live in Australia
The priece is compared with the posibilities of the potential buyers outside of AUS.
Of course any product that is designed and made in EU is mostly stuck there if the manufacturer does not outsource the product, and that is exactly because of the high cost of living that they have.
Let wait and see...if they lasted 5 years that means it is a profitable business, I can't argue with that.
To theOp who detailed the story of his build: you missed one thing- you pay for a camper with money AFTER taxes so depending on your tax bracket you can add 20-35% on top of that and then compare and see how long you need to work for that money (gross amount) if it still makes sense -sure go ahead...but I bet you that many would need an year to make that money and ignore other expenses. Practically you need a loan or to save for a number of years. If it a loan then add the interest you will be paying to the cost of the camper
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My only message here is that the price is a rip off
To theOp who detailed the story of his build: you missed one thing- you pay for a camper with money AFTER taxes so depending on your tax bracket you can add 20-35% on top of that and then compare and see how long you need to work for that money (gross amount) if it still makes sense -sure go ahead...but I bet you that many would need an year to make that money and ignore other expenses. Practically you need a loan or to save for a number of years. If it a loan then add the interest you will be paying to the cost of the camper
I assume you are addressing me here - no I didn't miss anything about taxes, I used half my salary to guess the labor costs. I assure you I am not in a 50% tax bracket. But if you want to get into the nitty gritty, you also need to consider the benefit rate. For most professionals the benefit rate (health insurance, retirement, vacation, sick leave etc) is higher than the income tax rate.
My point was not really about the precise cost to actually build the camper, it was that you need to also consider the number of hours it takes to figure out what to build and how to build it. For a manufacturer like FWC, they have already paid these development costs over the last 50 years, and it is spread over the thousands of campers they make. For a DIYer, that entire development cost (in terms of time or money) is added to the one camper you build. Luckily most DIYers consider this part of the 'fun' so they ignore the cost of this time.
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toylandcruiser
Expedition Leader
That’s f series. Ford doesn’t release individual numbers for the f150