Next-Generation Defender

[njjeepthing]

If I may, I'm just gonna sum up where the new Defender is headed:

As the owners of the Land Rover marquee (whoever that is at the moment) are a business, they will go wherever the money is. If the market wants to spend gobs of cash on unibody, independent suspension, 20 inch rim with low profile tire Defenders, the world will get unibody, independent suspension 20 inch rim with low profile tire Defenders from Land Rover.

If the market demands something else and is willing to pay for it, that's where Land Rover is headed. Simply business, that's all.

I'm not really sure anyone at _____fill_in_the_blank_____corporation, who currently owns the Land Rover Brand, gives a stuff about producing 150,000 units for a select market that really desire a world-class industrial/agricultural vehicle.

Well said and you can pretty much throw Jeep in there too. The new GC is a prime example, as well as the new Wrangler interior.

 

[bdbecker]

I think you hit the nail on the head Crusader, but I've been toying around with the idea that maybe there's finally room in the market for a $30k purpose built vehicle in the spirit of the old Defenders and FJ40s. Sort of a no-frills, moderately capable and highly reliable vehicle that most people can afford. I'm sure start up costs would be immense, but I'm always looking for investors...

 

[I Leak Oil]

So far nobody has mentioned the fact that the various military's around the world aren't really looking for un armored utility vehicles very much. They're going for more purpose built, uparmored from the factory stuff. LR used to have large contracts for military defenders, not so much now. It's tough to make up those sales losses.

 

[AxeAngel]

I think you hit the nail on the head Crusader, but I've been toying around with the idea that maybe there's finally room in the market for a $30k purpose built vehicle in the spirit of the old Defenders and FJ40s. Sort of a no-frills, moderately capable and highly reliable vehicle that most people can afford. I'm sure start up costs would be immense, but I'm always looking for investors...

Similar ton what ICON does. The downside is if you are going to build a purpose built vehicle, customers will want it over engineered. Lockers. Hardened frame. All the off road goodies. Diesel motor. Can't be done for 50k let alone 30k. You just don't have scale economies.

I did a lot of research on a company building low volume purpose built machines with the intent of doing consulting work for them on the finance/strategy side. This isn't a profitable enterprise...

-Sam

 

[R_Lefebvre]

$30k you could probably start with a VIN from a junked Series 3, and then just buy a new galvanized coiler frame, and build from there.

 

[bdbecker]

Similar ton what ICON does. The downside is if you are going to build a purpose built vehicle, customers will want it over engineered. Lockers. Hardened frame. All the off road goodies. Diesel motor. Can't be done for 50k let alone 30k. You just don't have scale economies.

I did a lot of research on a company building low volume purpose built machines with the intent of doing consulting work for them on the finance/strategy side. This isn't a profitable enterprise...

-Sam

You have obviously done your homework, and I totally understand what you are saying, however, what ICON does is very different than what I would do.

Instead of "the most advanced form of simple" (ICON motto) I'd build the simple form of simple. AM/FM radio is standard, if you want a CD player, swap it out yourself. You get 16" black steel wheels, if you want aluminum, go to TireRack.com. You do get to chose your paint color - black, white, OD green, or tan (maybe red). You will get a Warn winch on the front bumper, and you'll get a locking rear diff. But you will not get Recaro seats and a sun visor off a Leer jet. Basically, give the customer everything that matters, and nothing that doesn't. Someone who is the market for that kind of a vehicle will understand why the gauges say "Auto Meter" on them. You get your economies of scale by using off the shelf parts. I'd bet it could be done for $30k, but it would not very profitable.

Not trying to dig at you or anything, I just think with the right priorities, its more feasible than one thinks.

 

[Yorker]

It's hard to believe someone would pony up the extra cash for a Rubicon and never take it off-road. But then again, a lot of them probably didn't even know what they had. . .

A LOT of people pony up the extra money for Land Rovers and never use them offroad too.

There is just as much upgrading for Land Rovers but the aftermarket is smaller and less evident, Long arm suspensions, improved axles and shafts, aftermarket lifts, etc are all out there for them. Take any 4X4 and you will find people unsatisfied with how they perform off the showroom floor and the desire to "build" what people actually want out of them.

 

[Navman]

I think Mahindra is the closest option at this point, er, in the near future...

Now, the idea that someone mentioned about a Tata branded Defender would be acceptable at the right price point.

For now I'll just enjoy my LR3, with it's horrible, girly electronics that were designed by engineers that have never gone offroad.

 

[Viggen]

You have obviously done your homework, and I totally understand what you are saying, however, what ICON does is very different than what I would do.

Instead of "the most advanced form of simple" (ICON motto) I'd build the simple form of simple. AM/FM radio is standard, if you want a CD player, swap it out yourself. You get 16" black steel wheels, if you want aluminum, go to TireRack.com. You do get to chose your paint color - black, white, OD green, or tan (maybe red). You will get a Warn winch on the front bumper, and you'll get a locking rear diff. But you will not get Recaro seats and a sun visor off a Leer jet. Basically, give the customer everything that matters, and nothing that doesn't. Someone who is the market for that kind of a vehicle will understand why the gauges say "Auto Meter" on them. You get your economies of scale by using off the shelf parts. I'd bet it could be done for $30k, but it would not very profitable.

Not trying to dig at you or anything, I just think with the right priorities, its more feasible than one thinks.

First, I do not understand the ICON thing at all. It makes no sense to me as to why someone wants to spend that much money on something like that. As for your venture, thats a great idea but I think that youre only looking at mechanicals which can easily be had off the shelf. If youve ever tried to make panels out of any type of metal or even fiberglass, you will understand why I think you are a little bit optimistic in shooting for $30k. Price of components + price of metal + cost of labor in putting it all together and youre looking at no profit, in fact, probably a loss of good proportions with every unit. Only way around that is going to be starting with a vehicle that already exists, or existed, and building off of it and then youre looking at possible licensing issues. You would be better off starting by importing solid but mechanically fubar'd Defender, Patrol or working off of a CJ, etc... and going from there. Even then, youd probably still face a loss.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I agree Viggen. It seems simple to people who've never worked in the auto industry, but there are so many things they've never thought about.

For example, I used to engineer auto trans cooler tubes . You know how much the tooling cost to bend a set of tubes? $100,000. I couldn't believe it either. Now, amortize that over.... 10,000 trucks if you're lucky? The tubes now cost $10, just for the tooling, and you still haven't even bought the tubing or the labour. Or the engineering, testing, warranty cost, etc. etc. And that's just for the trans cooler tubes.

Honestly, I can't figure out how anybody builds anything with prices like that.

But you will not get Recaro seats

I agree with most of what you wrote, but if I would actually put Recaros in the truck. Just because they are so good. If you were just going to put junky seats in, I'd actually prefer you just put nothing in. Just bolt a milk crate to the floor. (I consider 95% of seats in cars these days to be junk).

 

[Douglas S.]

1976 Jeep CJ5, SOA, stretched wheelbase 10 inches, J-truck rear springs, Scout Dana 44 axles, spool rear, Detroit Locker front, Yukon chromoly shafts, 4.88 gears, TF727 auto, Dana 300 transfer case, full high steer conversion with hydraulic assist, 35 inch Goodyear MT/R's. AMC 304 motor, and a lot of other small stuff. Here are some pics.

And a stock Disco walked all over it? Somehow I doubt that.

Land Rovers are certainly very capable, but they do not posses god-like powers.

 

[Antichrist]

As the owners of the Land Rover marquee (whoever that is at the moment) are a business, they will go wherever the money is. If the market wants to spend gobs of cash on unibody, independent suspension, 20 inch rim with low profile tire Defenders, the world will get unibody, independent suspension 20 inch rim with low profile tire Defenders from Land Rover.

If the market demands something else and is willing to pay for it, that's where Land Rover is headed. Simply business, that's all.

Obviously I've never been asked my opinion by Land Rover, but it's difficult for me to imagine many people are demanding a vehicle called a "Defender" on an Discovery 4 type platform. Discoveries maybe, Range Rovers maybe, but Defender? I doubt it.

Does anyone really think the military, utility companies, farmers, construction companies, etc. are demanding such a vehicle?

 

[David Harris]

And a stock Disco walked all over it? Somehow I doubt that.

Land Rovers are certainly very capable, but they do not posses god-like powers.

I didn't say it walked all over it. But the Disco could take me wherever that CJ5 had taken me. The Jeep did some things better, and the Disco performed better in some circumstances.

 

[crusader]

Obviously I've never been asked my opinion by Land Rover, but it's difficult for me to imagine many people are demanding a vehicle called a "Defender" on an Discovery 4 type platform. Discoveries maybe, Range Rovers maybe, but Defender? I doubt it.

Does anyone really think the military, utility companies, farmers, construction companies, etc. are demanding such a vehicle?

I'm with you all the way! I'm just theorizing how a piece of rubbish like this could possibly make its way into existence as a "Defender",

 

[Viggen]

WOW. This is the first time that I have actually looked at the "spy" photos. Honda Element and FJ Cruiser with hints of Ford Bronco concept. Man, that thing is ugly and I actually like the Element.