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[ohsix]

I'm curious what duty a parts designer/seller has to make sure his/her parts are installed correctly and troubleshoot any problems?

I had a 2015 Ram 2500 Mega cab that I put a Carli Suspension kit on myself. I always had this loud bump/knock after installing the kit. I took the vehicle to an alignment shop after installing the kit and had them check alignment as well as make sure everything I installed was torqued correctly as some of the torque values were pretty high in hard to reach places. They checked everything, and I drove the truck for 20,000 miles with no problems other than a knock you could hear and feel from the front suspension every time you hit a bump. I don't think it presented any danger, so I just drove it. It never crossed my mind to hold Carli accountable for the problem. The problem started after I installed their parts, but I couldn't be certain it was one of their parts.

I know this death wobble is a safety issue and is much more bothersome than the knock I had. However, it seems like everyone is rushing to judgement of MG when we can't definitively say this is his fault. It sounds like he tried to isolate the problem and make sure it wasn't his parts causing the problem. Maybe he's confident his parts are not the problem and decided he needs to focus on other projects. Maybe he thinks it is a problem with his parts and just doesn't want to deal with it. I've never formally met MG, but from what I've read, he doesn't seem like the type to just ignore a problem if he feels like he can solve it (see his Cummins/Allison/E-series build).

If others are running his parts without the same problem, there must be a difference in the parts or the vans they are installed on. If everyone with an MG coil kit had death wobble, I think we could say with confidence, it's a problem with MG's parts or design. Unless everyone else with an MG coil kit is simply keeping quiet about their death wobble issues, it sounds like there are other variables that need to be addressed.

 

[Raul]

I'm curious what duty a parts designer/seller has to make sure his/her parts are installed correctly and troubleshoot any problems?

I totally agree and this is why, in my comment, I differentiate my situation from Gregor's. He has his kit installed by MG and it seems that he has been dumping money to top of the issue repairing parts, even getting new wheels.

If others are running his parts without the same problem, there must be a difference in the parts or the vans they are installed on. If everyone with an MG coil kit had death wobble, I think we could say with confidence, it's a problem with MG's parts or design. Unless everyone else with an MG coil kit is simply keeping quiet about their death wobble issues, it sounds like there are other variables that need to be addressed.

I think MG is very well respected and liked in this and other forums. Even Ford itself has problems with DW in its trucks. I am afraid several (lot?, few? ) of us have been trying to find the solution and not wanted to make unfair judgement. At the same time, lots of us jumped to this project and dedicated a lot of time, money and tears because we were counting on solid design. Seeing that Gregor is left hanging after trying to make things right doesn't seem fair.

 

[mgmetalworks]

As they say..."There are two sides to every story".

While it may sound like I've left Gregor hanging, the reality is that I've gone above and beyond to try to help him, even after getting a scathing email from him demanding that I fix his van at my expense until he is satisfied. At each decision point, my advice to Gregor was either ignored or not immediately implemented (and more hard miles were put on the van in the meantime) or dismissed as if I were wrong. I've spent untold hours researching, talking with other suspension experts, analyzing the information and videos. I set aside a mountain of paying work to spend three days repairing and reinforcing the frame on his van at no expense to Gregor. I've taken calls, texts, emails and provided as immediate of a response as I could to every one of his questions... I've done arguably more than any other vendor would have done in the same situation. For those of you who've made your judgments about me, just know that there's more to the story than what has been posted here. For now, focus on helping Gregor fix his van, not tearing me down. I'm not the bad guy. There is no bad guy in this story.

So...

- Like Brad said, bump steer doesn't automatically equate to DW. They're really two different things and should be treated as such. There isn't a significant amount of bump steer with this conversion. Some steering feedback, sure (of which recent steering “improvements” is a discussion we don’t need to exhaust here. I’ve stayed abreast of those developments and have my own professional opinion about them), but bump steer isn't the root of this problem in my opinion.

- The alignment on the van is within factory specs for toe and camber. Caster (at static ride height, unloaded van) was where I expected it to be and perfectly fine for the application. Remember though that a radius arm suspension is constantly gaining or losing caster as the suspension travels. Ford has published a TSB about the widely known "Rapid Steering Wheel Oscillation" problem on the Super Duty trucks. I bet most would be surprised with what it says about caster.

-Tires can have a significant influence on this issue. Gregor is incorrect in his statement that I lowered his tire pressure from 65 to 55psi. The truth is that I have a 65psi gauge and putting it on his tire, the gauge maxed out hard and it was a long time of letting air out before I got down to 65psi. With the tire pressure set to 55psi, I immediately noticed a difference in handling and the van didn't seem as jittery. Who knows what effect 75psi, 80psi, 85psi…?? had on components.

- The last time I drove the van, I felt the brakes pulsing and I suggested to him that it would be a good idea to have them inspected. I felt a shimmy (not to the point of DW but close) under braking so I suggested he have this looked at (along with a list of other suggestions). I don't believe it or the list was inspected before he took the van to CO.

- Some folks don't like to hear "put a dual steering stabilizer on". For whatever reason, the internet consensus is that a dual stabilizer is a band aid. Is it? I don't think so. You've got two large tires with a lot of rotating mass and if they're not settled down after a bump (or some other influence), what are they going to do? Would you drive a vehicle without shocks? What if you took the shocks off of one of these vans, what would happen? You'd bounce and bounce and bounce.... So why let your tires continue to bounce back and forth? Large tires, especially large tires on wheels with very little backspacing like he’s had, are going to tear ******** apart if they're not kept under control. For most of the vans we've done so far, the single shock stabilizer has done the job. On Gregor's van it wasn't up to the task. I've recommended a dual stabilizer, I've even offered to put one on (at no cost to him) and here we are, still with no dual stabilizer to see the improvements.

- I've studied the videos. I see all the things that y'all are seeing. Like mk216v said, doesn’t anyone else notice the pitman arm jiggling before the tires really start to shake? Could it be possible that some of the components that had been replaced previously are in need of replacing again due to the violent shaking they've been through, most likely due to worn out parts? One of the major truck magazines just posted a good article on DW and stated that one wobble event can potentially damage front end components like the steering box, ball joints, tie rod ends, etc... I suggested to him that a shop who specializes in steering boxes and front end service inspect the van to see if there were any issues as I don't have the equipment that some shops have and I don't rebuild front ends day in and day out. I don't think making a suggestion to take the van to another shop was off-base. There's a clear distinction in my opinion as to what things I might be responsible for. Those might include any manufacturing defects in the components I produced or any errors in installation. There were no manufacturing defects in my kit parts and no installation errors. I stood behind my installation work for many months after the conversion and went above and beyond on repair work that I really could have charged him for. I am not responsible for wear items though just like I am not responsible for vehicle wear and tear at the hands of any owner. This van has been a perfect storm of problems from day one and as many of you might already know, I originally advised Gregor against converting this van. At his insistence however, he wanted to move forward. I've put a lot of effort into helping Gregor. I've given tons of my time and offered my suggestions and more. If someone doesn't want to follow your suggestions however, then how can you help them? Sadly you can’t. And now I feel like I’m being blamed for that.

-I don't believe there is anything wrong with the coil conversion design. There are many vans on the road now that have our conversion, and they drive great! Here we are though, several of you pouncing on me and thinking that there is some inherent problem with what I designed and that I must be a jerk because I'm not helping. From the first instance of problems with Gregor's van right up until I saw the second video (just a few days ago), I was doing everything I could to help. Realize that I can't easily afford to just set aside all my paying work and bust out stuff for free, but I did it because of who I am. When I saw the second video though, I came to the conclusion that the issues are now down to wear items and it really isn't my issue to solve, especially almost a year after the initial installation. You're all forgetting that this is a 1999 former airport shuttle van with over 167k miles. It showed up at our shop beaten, filthy, used up and really (in my opinion) at the end of its useful life. Many of you are so quick to point to something in my design, but it couldn't possibly be old and tired used vans like these contributing to the problem? Every van since the beginning of time has a perfect frame? Perfect steering? Perfect everything? But a few brackets designed by a degree'd engineer (two engineering degrees actually) MUST be the smoking gun, right??

I've moved on from the E-series stuff. Not because of Gregor's van but because they're just not a big part of what we do any more. We get many, many times more inquiries for Transit’s and Sprinter’s than we do for the E-series. I can’t stop anyone from drawing any conclusions that you want, but I don’t need to justify my business decisions here on a public forum. This is about helping Gregor get his van fixed. And as you can see from the info above, I’ve gone above and beyond the call of duty to help him do just that

 

[Smoker]

MG, was your recommendation not to convert due to the age and condition of the van or because you don’t think a 7.3 EB is a good candidate for coil conversion? Or both? Curious because many of us with old 7.3’s should consider these factors when deciding. Thx

 

[another_mike]

MG, was your recommendation not to convert due to the age and condition of the van or because you don’t think a 7.3 EB is a good candidate for coil conversion? Or both? Curious because many of us with old 7.3’s should consider these factors when deciding. Thx

Exactly what I’m wondering. With 140,000 miles on my van preconversion, there’s not a single part of the suspension or brakes other than the master cylinder and steering box which isn’t brand new or rebuilt... so it’s the age of the frame?

 

[cjken]

I hope my post did not come off as too “judgy”.
I’m a huge fan of the ambitious projects that you have posted, attention to detail in your designs, and professional expertise. The 6.7 swap is awesome!!

I just found the video “shocking” and would like to see the root cause at least identified.
Maybe as some have suggested the steering box needs replacement.
It’s likely not your parts themselves as you said, but tracking it down would be good peace of mind.

My Quigley wobble experience was definitely worn parts that I neglected for too long. I think it was the track bar bushings mostly. I also had a cracked control arm that was weakened by rust before Quigley went to the round arms.

I apologize if my comments seemed over the top

 

[boardrider247]

Death wobble is complicated.
But in my experience (2-lifted XJ's and a Cummins Dodge pickup) the first thing to do is set the toe to zero degrees. I know it has been said that this van is aligned to "factory specs" that could include a couple degrees of toe in. Set the toe to zero and then start chasing the other problems.

 

[mgmetalworks]

Generally speaking, the 4th gen Econoline is a fine candidate for coil spring 4x4 conversions. The condition of the starting van is a case by case thing.

 

[douglawrence42]

Oh no, two of my absolute favorite internet builders are having a disagreement! This is surprisingly sad for me, a random internet lurker. I hope you get it figured out, and I’m sorry the relationship seems spoiled.


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[UHAULER]

MG , I appreciate your side of the story. It is probably just a combination of worn out parts/ draglink /steering box.
I'm sure there have been more than a few people with issues on other 4wd companies conversions.

 

[Pinnacle Campers]

I am going to be moving forward and I appreciate Chris reaching out to me and I look forward to putting this part of the build behind me and moving on to the next parts.

Seems like a perfect opportunity for you to install the parts from ujoint and with no other changes of course, cure death wobble.

 

[5spd97]

I've followed this build from the start and I know that both of you guys are good people with good intentions who are caught up in a frustrating, seemingly no-win situation. I have a 2003 f250 2wd that I bought new in 2002. It now has 140k miles on it and I have experienced the DW during three different periods over the past 16 years. Each time I was thoroughly convinced that the problem was bad or worn suspension components only to find out that it was a delaminating front tire. (I know, I know...cheap tires). My point is that the problem may be simple but the diagnosis frequently is not, especially in this case with an old suspension and new components. I hope that you guys can work this out and I wish the best to both of you.

 

[ohsix]

If you think it is a steering gearbox issue, there used to be a company called PSC that made quality boxes with a good warranty. I don’t know if they’re still around.

I had a 2000 Dodge Cummins 4x4 that ate steering gearboxes. It was a bad front end design that put a lot of lateral stress on the output shaft of the gearbox, so it would kill the shaft seal and dump out all the fluid.

I bought a couple of remanufactured boxes and the first one had a lot of slop out of the box. The PSC box was about $100 more than a reman OEM box, but it was built better and with tighter tolerances. Because of the bad steering design, I still killed a couple of output shaft seals, but PSC sent a replacement at no cost both times.

I’m not sure your problem is the steering gearbox, but if it is, I would give PSC a try.

 

[cjken]

I put one of those RedHead steering boxes in mine. It’s been great.
I had a PSC box in a Jeep. I could not find a van box from them when I was looking.

 

[Chuxideas]

Hi guys, I I rarely if ever post. But read many of the threads on this forum in particular that one’s relating to 4 x 4 vans. I too have have a coil spring 4 x 4 van that was built using a mix of U-Joint parts and other off-the-shelf parts. As soon as the van was drivable there was the infamous DW. But was quickly and easily remedied by simply adjusting/adding greater negative caster. I my case, granted this was quick and easy as I have a 4/5 link system. If searching through the Internet for answers for DW the vast majority of information is basically the same as the comments here in this post, throwing parts at it, adjusting toe etc though if you dig deeply you will find some info that caster is the culprit in modified coil sprung vehicles. I don’t believe that worn parts are the inherent cause of DW on modified 4x4 coil sprung vans/vehicles, its a caster adjustment. Finally my observation on dual steering stabilizers, why demonize a product that is proven to help steering issues related to lift and big tires. To the OP I hope that this helps solve your DW! To MG you were my inspiration to go coil sprung, thank you! My coil sprung van rides almost as smooth as my old independent Toyota PU.



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