NPS fines AWD owners…

[carleton]

I'm all for keeping less-capable vehicles off of NPS 4x4 trails, but relying solely on 8" of ground clearance and a locking transfer case fails to consider a lot of other factors in off-road capability. The Subaru Crosstrek Wilderesss with 9.3" of ground clearance and short wheelbase would not be allowed as it does not have a locking transfer case. A Ford Super Duty crewcab long bed would be allowed despite poor approach, breakover, and departure angles, poor turning radius, and 8,000 pounds of heft. In the majority of off-highway cases the Subaru would outperform the pickup truck. Some common sense needs to be employed when enforcing these regulations.

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Yes, but at the end of the day land managers have to draw a line somewhere, and it has to be easily enforceable and understandable. Unfortunately that means that some users will be intentionally or unintentionally excluded.

I guess someone could get Blue Ribbon Coalition to sue on behalf of Subaru owners......😂

 

[BritKLR]

Generally speaking, all these "what if's or what about" would normally be handled/answered through a basic investigation prior to a summons issued, if a summons is even issued.

I mean most AWD vehicles are designated that way on the registration and/or insurance paperwork which is the first thing an LEO is going to ask you for so it doesn't really matter what "4wd" sticker you put on your vehicle if it's designated an AWD by the manufacturer. Trust me, no manufacturer is going to testify on your behalf in court that their car is really a 4wd....

Again, the intent of this enforcement is to reduce property damage, vehicle damage, insurance issues, recovery costs and possibly save someone's life.

 

[Mickey Bitsko]

This is all about keeping not so bright people from doing not so bright things.
As evidenced from past , it's an uphill battle and job security.

 

[Jupiter58]

Yes, the definition is pretty straightforward, thanks for fining it BRit!
I looked into this when applying for my white rim road pass. Made perfect sense to me considering the time involved to drag a vehicle out of there. Also in DV on some parts IIRC.
Subaru needs a 4lo box like they had years ago!

 

[BritKLR]

BTW, this is not a new issue. It's just its time, due to supporting data, to step up enforcement.

I remember when Audi Quattros from Boulder were the #1 car I was pulling off the trails. The vast majority were simply trying to get to a trail head they should have walked to.

 

[COAKXterra]

And, I'll comment on the same point about NPS LEO's.

LOL......I suspect you've never met an NPS Back Country Law Enforcement Officer and therefore you have no clue what their training/knowledge base/real world life experience is regarding the ability to determine the difference between a 4wd and a AWD. I spent a lot of time at GlynCo, FLETC and working/training with The Department of the Interior LEO's in the back country and I can assure you they can tell the difference. Period.

This.

As someone who has spent a LOT of time with backcountry rangers (both LEO and interpreter/techs) for USFS, BLM, and NPS… I can attest as well that not only do they know the difference and what vehicles are appropriate for what roads/trails, but also a good number of them are extremely capable motorheads in their professional and personal lives. And most of the ones I’ve worked along side are also compassionate understanding folks who would rather educate and prevent issues than ticket someone.

As said, this is an example of where education has missed the mark for certain user groups and enforcement has come into play. Many of the AWD crew probably don’t consider themselves “off-roaders” and so programs like Stay The Trail, Tread Lightly/Ride With Respect, and the like are probably not on their radar. It’s a long running theme in the OHV education realm… the separation of education/stewardship participation between primary and secondary users.

 

[rruff]

AWD is NOT 4WD. If you take an AWD vehicle on a NPS 4WD road, expect to be fined and more!

Yet another reason why I don't like National Parks... and I have 4wd.

 

[redthies]

Yet another reason why I don't like National Parks... and I have 4wd.

I’m not a big fan of ANY organized “camping”, but occasionally suck it up and drive through a NP. Where I live, Yellowstone has been “in my way” on a couple of fishing or hunting trips, so I bite my tongue and get through as quick as I can, which is often way slower than I’d like due to “gapers”.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I’m not a big fan of ANY organized “camping”, but occasionally suck it up and drive through a NP. Where I live, Yellowstone has been “in my way” on a couple of fishing or hunting trips, so I bite my tongue and get through as quick as I can, which is often way slower than I’d like due to “gapers”.

Hello, my name is ThundahBeagle. And I have been a "gaper" in Yellowstone. Sorry.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Hello, my name is ThundahBeagle. And I have been a "gaper" in Yellowstone. Sorry.

It's TRUE. I didnt mean to. But I saw the sign for the great divide, thought of "Roll Me Away" by Bob Seager, looking at the young hawk flying staring out at the great divide, and I gaped.

 

[Sparse Gray Hackle]

Hello, my name is ThundahBeagle. And I have been a "gaper" in Yellowstone. Sorry.

I suspect there is a 12 Program to help with that…

 

[plh]

As an AWD & a 4WD owner / driver, there are a lot of places that both can access, and a lot of places I would only take my 4WDs. Stupid is as stupid does.

Even though my '14 Outlander has a S-AWC 4WD system with "LOCK" mode, it does not have a low range in the transfer case.

 

[Pacific Northwest yetti]

The Subaru mafia will be quite upset...they will take action...

All joking aside,

I have also worked closely with the LEO Rangers who went through FLETC. They are dialed, and when something goes south, if i had my choice I would choose one of them to back me up, over many other officers from the front country.

Also not the same officers as those from the Park Ranger academy program.

 

[1stDeuce]

I feel for the agencies that are tasked with "keeping people safe", which is obviously a losing battle these days, and likely the main reason for this decision.

I've come to the point where I can no longer condone legislation intended to protect the stupid from their own stupidity. I suspect that many of us would have no problem taking an awd vehicle like a Crosstrek on many of the 4wd roads in national parks, most of which are not really that difficult. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people are completely devoid of off-road driving skills, or any self-awareness related to their capabilities in the back country. They assume that their (insert car-based awd vehicle) is invincible because it drove through four inches of snow one time, which they are sure was at least 8-10"... This legislation is for them, so that the agency coming to their rescue can disuade others like them from making the same mistake... I suspect many people will get away with violating this rule, while others who get into trouble will be fined in lieu of simply becoming dead and creating negative press for the NPS...

Reading the compendium, it is interesting to note that many new half ton trucks no longer have low range in the transfer case, even though they do have selectable 2wd/Auto/4wd. Instead, they have 8-10 speed transmissions with low enough first gears that low range is really not necessary. Even my 2009 Chevy 2500 really didn't need low range given how low first gear was in the 6 speed, and I believe gearing the 10 speeds is even lower...

 

[rruff]

Instead, they have 8-10 speed transmissions with low enough first gears that low range is really not necessary.

They increase the gearing range a little, but it's more for MPG than anything else. By comparison, the transfer case on my truck is a 2.64:1 ratio.

Comparing a F150 10spd 3.73 to my Tundra, the overall gearing is:

F150: 1st = 17.5
Tundra: 1st = 14.3, 1st Lo = 37.8

So 1st on the F150 is still over twice as high.