OT: Who is building their rig in case of a Doomsday scenario?

[teotwaki]

I'm having a hard time following your logic to conclusion. Why would a hostile nation risk war with the largest military on Earth, just to fry some computers?

Among others, the Chinese military considers an EMP strike as a viable tool for confronting the United States, especially over the contested Spratley Islands or the independence of Taiwan. The thinking is that if they (China, etc) do not attack our military or homeland with nuclear bombs but merely "disable" an aircraft carrier or military base how could we be justified in nuking one of their cities?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/21/beijing-develops-radiation-weapons/?page=all
http://media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2011/07/22/ngic-emp.pdf

As per the OP's request I want to avoid the politcal aspects of the issue. The fact that the Boeing company has weaponised a device and flown it in a cruise missle means that it is a viable military option that functions without any nuclear explosion required. Essentially a much more "surgical" strike scenario has been realized. EMP weapons are also equalizers that allow smaller nations (N. Korea & Iran) to confront a superior foe.

 

[Wallache]

Yes, I don't wish to politicize this either. I'm just trying to point out (like Buliwyf) that storms, earthquakes, riots, etc. are much more likely scenerios. Surgical EMP strikes against military targets is a different situation (from a bugout perspective, at least), than the civilian population as a whole having to deal deal with the effects of EMP.

 

[teotwaki]

Yes, I don't wish to politicize this either. I'm just trying to point out (like Buliwyf) that storms, earthquakes, riots, etc. are much more likely scenerios. Surgical EMP strikes against military targets is a different situation (from a bugout perspective, at least), than the civilian population as a whole having to deal deal with the effects of EMP.

Good points and I agree that the likelihood is still low since I drive a 2005 model year truck. :elkgrin: I too am more worried about a really nasty earthquake than EMP.

When only nuclear weapons could generate a significant EMP there was a much lower chance of being the victim of EMP. What Boeing has managed to accomplish with their package flown in a cruise missile has raised the percentage up quite a bit. It is no leap at all to imagine a hostile government building large devices in tractor trailers and parking them in cities, ports and military bases to be triggered remotely. At that point the resulting freeway jams and power outages would trap any driver who had a functioning vehicle.

 

[eggman918]

I did not purposely build the Filthy Beast for the doomsday scenario growing up in So.Cal. a major strategic target during the '60's/'70's remembering "duck and cover" and air raid drills in school it was one of the rolls that it needs to fill.That being said the main reason for the build was recreation in the case of our family the two are very much compatible,which is a good thing since if you do not have any experience living in the boonies the vehicle to get you there is not much good....except maybe as resupply for those that do.

 

[fnjeep314]

Chances are, unless you have a 2005+ vehicle (lots of gadgets), emp probably won't take it out. Congress had a commission report on emp in 2004 that tested 20+vehicles, 1982-2002, and most just needed restarting, a couple needed the battery disconnected to reset the ecm, and one lost a digital dash. Cars are pretty well shielded, or you couldn't' listen to an am radio.

AWWWW, but I love my AM radio!

 

[bob91yj]

I'm going to throw a little twist at you guys.

I work at a Cadillac dealership. A few months ago we had a number of 2010-2012 Cadillac SRX's (odd that it was only SRX's) that experienced issues with their remote transmitters. There is a manual door lock on the driver's side, but no manual ignition key for start up if the remote transmitter isn't recognized by the car. The odd thing about this is they all happened within a few miles of 32nd St Naval Station, and once the cars were towed a few miles away they worked as designed with no issues. There were also reports in the news of other remote transmitters for garage door openers, burglar alarms etc in that area having issues during that time frame.

No idea what the Navy was playing with or if it was just a ship rotating/radiating an antenna, whatever it was it can stop a Cadillac from starting!

Thinking about this a bit, when I worked for Allison Transmission I had a problem with a rural school bus with an electronic shifter randomly shifting in to Neutral. I was stumped, couldn't figure it out, couldn't duplicate the problem. I finally went on a ride along with one of their drivers. We'd barely left their yard when the driver radio'd to the dispatcher that she was headed out, at the same time the transmission failed to Neutral. Turns out, one of the garage guys was a radio head, he had hopped up the radios in the buses. He ran the co-ax for the antenna right across the top of the transmission TCM. With the radio power turned up it was causing Radio Frequency Interference with the Allison TCM.

 

[Photomike]

This is going to be a little off topic but I need to ask two questions to get a better idea on EMP's:

1- I thought that an EMP burst only had an effect on equipment that was running. If you had a car sitting in the driveway not running it would not be effected?

2 - EMP is localized to a small area? It would work for a few blocks but it would not take out a area such as western Canada, or the western US.

 

[teotwaki]

This is going to be a little off topic but I need to ask two questions to get a better idea on EMP's:

1- I thought that an EMP burst only had an effect on equipment that was running. If you had a car sitting in the driveway not running it would not be effected?

2 - EMP is localized to a small area? It would work for a few blocks but it would not take out a area such as western Canada, or the western US.

1. Think of it such that wires or other metallic items act as antennas for the EMP to couple into. That energy is looking to flow to whatever is the equivilent of ground for the "antenna" whether or not the car is running. Anything in the path that cannot handle the surge of current will be damaged. Semiconductors, computer chips, small gage wires, etc.

2. EMP from a high altitude burst can cover a huge area. See diagram. EMP from the Boeing cruise missle is limited to a much smaller area, probably classified



Please note that the Nuke burst is at such a high altitude that nothing on the ground is "turned to dust"

 

[Photomike]

Thanks for the info the reason that I am asking is that I have heard both sides, this is from the EMP commission:

We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially increasing EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent) was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous response was observed, the testing was continued up to the field intensity limits of the simulation capability (approximately 50 kV/m).

Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on running automobiles was that the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approximately 30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a stop and require the driver to restart them. Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively . Twenty-five automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g., blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the 37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response.

Based on these test results, we expect few automobile effects at EMP field levels below 25 kV/m. Approximately 10 percent or more of the automobiles exposed to higher field levels may experience serious EMP effects, including engine stall, that require driver intervention to correct. We further expect that at least two out of three automobiles on the road will manifest some nuisance response at these higher field levels. The serious malfunctions could trigger car crashes on U.S. highways; the nuisance malfunctions could exacerbate this condition. The ultimate result of automobile EMP exposure could be triggered crashes that damage many more vehicles than are damaged by the EMP, the consequent loss of life, and multiple injuries.

I was always told that if you had a vehicle turned off that it was fine?

 

[Buliwyf]

Yes. Generally allmost all of the IC chips, computer boards, and systems I deal with are extremly robust to abuse, except when powered.

Simply touching certain chips when they're live can damage them, but I can zap them with a meggar, tie them to my dog, throw them in a river while they're dead, and they'll work fine when powered up later on.

25kV/M is a whole lot of juice flowing through the air. If cars can survive that.....no worries. It would have to be a pretty direct EMP burst.

The Navy story is entirely plausable. Ships and F18 Superbugs have all kinds of ECM, Electronic CounterMeasures. And AESA radars can do all kinds of cool stuff. Interfering with remote starters and garage door openers is childs play.

 

[teotwaki]

Thanks for the info the reason that I am asking is that I have heard both sides, this is from the EMP commission:

We tested a sample of 37 cars ----SNIP!-----I was always told that if you had a vehicle turned off that it was fine?

Dealt with that in Post #28
http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...-of-a-Doomsday-scenario?p=1255735#post1255735

 

[teotwaki]

Yes. Generally allmost all of the IC chips, computer boards, and systems I deal with are extremly robust to abuse, except when powered.

Simply touching certain chips when they're live can damage them, but I can zap them with a meggar, tie them to my dog, throw them in a river while they're dead, and they'll work fine when powered up later on.

25kV/M is a whole lot of juice flowing through the air. If cars can survive that.....no worries. It would have to be a pretty direct EMP burst.

The Navy story is entirely plausable. Ships and F18 Superbugs have all kinds of ECM, Electronic CounterMeasures. And AESA radars can do all kinds of cool stuff. Interfering with remote starters and garage door openers is childs play.

Dogs don't generate EMP so let's put that one into the grave alongside the "things turning to dust" statement. Let's also bury the Meggar statement since they are insulation testers and do not generate anything near the voltage and rise time to simulate EMP effects.

25kV/meter is the LOW end of the EMP range. In the diagram in post #38 the peak field (red) is at 50kV/meter and the very wide blue field is 37.5 kV meter. Please note that "EM" stands for electro-magnetic" and it is radiated through the air similar to your FRS walkie talky's radio signal. The diagram is based on typical Cold War weapon yields but literature searches touch on "super" EMP bombs where Soviet scientists worried about protecting equipment for 200kV/meter field strengths.

There are already a ton of myths out there about EMP. Read at a site such as www.futurescience.com/emp.html for EMP articles that are more English than nerd-talk.

"The magnitude of the effect of an EMP attack on the United States, or any similar advanced country, will remain unknown until one actually happens. Unless the device is very small or detonated at an insufficiently high altitude, it is likely that it would knock out the nearly the entire electrical power grid of the United States. It would destroy many other electrical and (especially) electronic devices. Larger microelectronic-based equipment, and devices that are connected to antennas or to the power grid at the time of the pulse, would be especially vulnerable."


Trivia question: why would a nuclear weapon detonated on the moon have no EMP? :elkgrin:

 

[Tinker]

Sorry I'm late to the party on this. If you have a car that does not have variable timing fuel injection, you should be fine. A HEMP (high altitude electromagnetic pulse), when tested in both the Pacific and in the then Soviet Union, has a peak amplitude of 50 kV/m, which would probably stop a car until you restarted it. If anyone was going to attack the United States, a HEMP would be the best plan, as it would impair communications and power delivery due to the large antenna created by transmission lines. Plus, you could effectively hit 50 kV/m with just a couple of missles to get coverage over the entire continental US.

If you are looking at a point ignition system or carburated motor for an EMP, they're both good, but you lose a lot of benefits you gain with a more modern mechanical fuel injection unit. And as previously stated, to get in to the truly dangerous 1 MV/m range, you would need an air or surface burst missle. The CHAMP test done by Boeing was interesting, but it was a very near field EMP generator, so it radiated at greater than 50 kV/m, but only over a very short distance. This is why it could knock out computers at a military base, but not fry an entire town.

As for the Cadillacs, EWCS is great for interfering with radio signals. It's an urban tale in the Navy that the power outages on the East Coast during 2003 were the result of the Navy flexing a few EA/6s radiating to disrupt sensitive power distribution facilities, but it's much more in the realm of their capability to use an EA/18 or EA/6 to jam radio communications.

 

[Greggk]

Well so far my plan is a get an older suburban 89-91 that has very little in the way of electronics. Cars with little electronics will not be affected or as affected in case of an EMP. A car sitting on rubber tires will be isolated in the case of EMP unless its close to power lines. I would also keep spare ignition parts in the rig because the body acts as a faraday cage and will protect most if not all electronics. The suburban will be lifted, locked and stocked with food, supplies, and a 'living space' is thats what you can call the back area! Plus I am going to build expo trailer with a RTT and water, gas, ammo, guns will be in the suburban, batteries, hitch mount motorcycle carrier, you name it. The plan would be that if I needed to come home and hook up the trailer to the suburban, put the bike on and go. Hopefully it wouldnt take much more time than an hour to leave. I have a young daughter(currently 19 months) to think about, so I will need things for her, diapers, wipes, I also plan on having clothes pre-packed in a backpack to allow for a grab-n-go situation. All this can even be used in case of weather emergencies. Thats what I have mentally planned out so far. NOw to just get the money to make it all happen. I used to work as an Emergency Manager for Naval Air Station Lemoore, CA when I was in the Navy this last year, so I learned a lot when it comes to preparing for emergencies.

WRONG!!! first off, just because you are carb'd does not mean you dont have a computer. havent you heard of this new thing that came out in the late 70's-early 80's called electronic ignition? those are actually run off a computer. my old 1982 bronco with a carb'd 302 had a duraspark ignition which had a computer that controlled the ignition. yes it had a good old dizzy, but it was used for advancing and retarding the spark, as well as the actual spark firing. second, if a nuke goes off it can put out an emp for a distance of around 300ish miles, depending on the altitude of the blast (surface vs air burst). so even at 250 miles away it can effect electronic circuit boards.

the vehicles body doesnt really act as a faraday cage as an EMP is basically a static charge, yes it will absorb some but nowhere close to all of the EMP charge. best thing to do is make a farady cage, so just grab some mylar EMP resistant bags and slide your computer equipment inside of it to help shield them. they arent expensive and it may be a pain in the *** to do, but it could prove to be worth it.

http://www.disasterstuff.com/store/pc/EMP-Faraday-Bags-c128.htm

btw my experience is i am an Army forward observer who is also the unit NBC NCO. I had to go through actual NBC certification course which was 120 hours long when i went through it.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

Not building my truck as a "bug-out" vehicle. I am adding to it's capabilities so that if something were to happen, we could rely on it and go mobile. OK, so maybe "bug out" has crossed my mind. I'm more worried about short term disasters than long term end of the world stuff.




I got a shotgun, rifle and a 4 wheel drive, and a country boy can survive...


well, unless a real bad EMP...