P38 vs Disco II

[rijosho]

I was going to mention this. Comparing an LR3 to a grossly overpriced DII is not terribly useful.

Haha, it's what popped up on the local CL for a 2004 DII. There have been a ton listed in the $11-14k range - just comparing for my argument that for a few k$ more you can get an LR3, which I think is useful. Looking today, there are a few around $8k, but the cheapest 2004 SE7 I could find was $11k on a quick search locally.

 

[spikemd]

I don't recommend buying any rover from a dealer. They are usually trade-ins or someone looking to dump a problem vehicle. Buy it from the owner where you can get a sense of his/her commitment to the vehicle and maintenance records.

Don't be persuaded by price either. The dealers price them ridiculously high and some owners price really low. Price is not an indicator of quality when it comes to rovers. I looked at many P38s and discos before I found mine with some sellers wanted $4k more than what I payed and those trucks needed a ton of work to be done.

Be patient and do your homework as the common issues with each truck you look at.

 

[spikemd]

quick buyers guide someone put together for P38:

http://www.mez.co.uk/p38.html

 

[DreamingOfExpeditions]

Awesome SpikeMD just the kind of feedback I was looking for. I don't plan on much rock crawling here in the east. Mostly a trail rig for boondocking and fishing.

 

[RoverDude]

A customer of mine has a completely outfitted P38. Includes Hannibal roof rack, sliders, front bumper with winch, Hella 4000 HIDs, etc. He's asking $6500. With your extra coin you could get her tip top and have some change for future repairs & maintenance.

 

[dcwhybrew]

Is the LR3 substantially more reliable than a well sorted DII?

I am looking into picking up a 2004 DII but he prices of LR3s are tempting. However, all the electronic aspects of the LR3 vs. the relatively basic nature of the DII is something I cannot ignore...

What can one expect owning a LR3 at around 80-90k?

Thanks

ABSOLUTELY the LR3 is substantially more reliable than a "well sorted" D2. I have owned two of each. The LR3s remain virtually maintenance free. That doesnt mean you dont have to change fluids and replace disposable items. The LR3's engine, ancillaries and electronics are exponentially more reliable than a D2. Even the LR3s air suspension is reliable. I have 114k on my LR3 now and it has been trouble free. In fact, quite boring compared to the previous LRs I have owned....LOL Ignore the previous models, unless you just want to be a collector. Buy the LR3 if you are going to use it daily and take it off road often.

I figured Spike would post up about his P38 experiences! LOL

I actually liked how my P38 performed. It was very comfortable to drive and very solid. I did not like all of the electrical issues that constantly had to be dealt with, and the air suspension. The air supension is one step above crap than the RRC air suspension. Unfortunately, its the air suspension that really gave the P38 its nice ride. I doubt the P38 performs the same with coils. I dont know for certain though. The P38 is a beautiful car. Probably one of the nicest LR has designed. I just wish it was more reliable. I would never take it off road, or anywhere remote. I just didnt have confidence in it.

Note the P38 has the Borg Warner transfer case. The viscous coupler works very similar to a center locking differential. Its quite effective. I believe the P38s were very effective off road with the VC and traction control. I certianly enjoyed the P38s performance out in the desert the few times I took it out. Like I said, I would never take one in remote areas though.

 

[Daryl]

Haha, it's what popped up on the local CL for a 2004 DII. There have been a ton listed in the $11-14k range - just comparing for my argument that for a few k$ more you can get an LR3, which I think is useful. Looking today, there are a few around $8k, but the cheapest 2004 SE7 I could find was $11k on a quick search locally.

Please be aware there is a huge difference between the ask price and the sell price on most of these trucks. People selling them either don't know better or are hoping to find a sucker. They rarely go anywhere near the ask price.

This isn't unique to Discos, but it's particularly prevalent with some vehicles especially 03/04s D2s and even more so for SE7s.

 

[DreamingOfExpeditions]

Has anyone worked with Carrollrovers out of San Diego? Seems like a perfectly acceptable alternative to coiling the suspension.

I did a quick Autotrader vs. Edmunds book value. Yeah they are asking way more for what a fair value is on these things. I must say the p38 is still holding my interest...

 

[dcarr1971]

Ok dcar. I'm game. Make the argument for D2 v. LR3. My needs are the same above. $15k is still what I'd put in to the whole thing total. Bumpers, RTT, racks etc. included.

That's what I was trying to get at...I honestly love the LR3s and can see myself buying one eventually, but I don't want to beat the snot out of a $15k truck in the woods.

I don't know that I can say much bad about the LR3 beyond the added (initial) expense and the fact that it's substantially longer (~10 inches?) than a D2. If that length isn't a problem for you off-road, then IMO they are really impressive as long as the driver has some idea what they're doing. If he doesn't, I've seen guys in the LR3s take lots of damage...but this is really true in any truck off-road (the LR3 is just nicer and more expensive, so it hurts a little more to see one get banged up).

You will have to decide for yourself how much you'd take it off-road and weigh the extra space and horse power versus the potential to drag the rear end and challenges in tight quarters. For $15k you can get a LR3 and maybe put some MT tires on it. Then if you get some Johnson rods, you can use the existing suspension to lift it whenever you need the extra ground clearance, then drop it back to normal ride height for every day use. If you can find one with the 'heavy duty' package (locking rear diff) that's in nice shape, then it would almost certainly be better than any D2 that hasn't had lockers installed. That said, given the budget of $15k you'll have to live with the stock bumpers, no sliders, and probably no winch.

On the other hand, if you're going someplace genuinely rough, with a $15k budget I'd find a nice $3-7k D2 (On a side note, don't get too stuck on the idea of the '03/'04 model years, they aren't that much nicer, certainly not for the price difference...the '99-'01s were also extremely good and it's easy to add the locking transfer case shifter from a D1.). Then I'd bring it up-to-date on maintenance, add some MT's, lift it, and armor it up (with f/r diff guards, sliders, steel bumpers), and finally a winch...

If you aren't going places where you'll need that stuff, or you aren't worried about damage, then get the LR3. It's just as capable, and much nicer than the D2s. A word of caution though...I bought my D2 and said "I'm just going to do a little light off-roading, nothing too rough." The next thing I know it's 2 years later and I'm doing a run up a stream bed full of boulders. Personally my biggest reason for not getting a LR3 yet is because I would just feel bad about destroying it...D2s are like a commodity. Build one up, drive it until it dies, buy another and swap the off-road bits over to it, then sell the 1st one for parts...


(<-- thanks to rijosho for documenting me banging my D2 up LOL)

...Buy the LR3 if you are going to use it daily and take it off road often.

I figured Spike would post up about his P38 experiences! LOL...

Spike was definitely one of the guys I was thinking of when I said there have been some people who've had great experiences with P38s. I've seen a lot more that haven't though...

 

[dcwhybrew]

Ok dcar. I'm game. Make the argument for D2 v. LR3. My needs are the same above. $15k is still what I'd put in to the whole thing total. Bumpers, RTT, racks etc. included.

As I have mentioned, of the seven total Land Rovers I have owned (D1, D2, RRC, P38 & LR3), the LR3 has been every bit as capable in stock form - if not more capable. I never modified my LRs. Not that I didnt want to, I just never got around to it and they perform so well on moderate trails in stock form. As I mentioned in a previous post, the LR3 is exponentially more reliable than the D2, or any other model that I have owned. Now, let me be clear, NONE of the Land Rovers I have ever owned have ever left me stranded. Even the three times I lost an alternator out in the boonies, I was still able to make it home. Obviously the alternator is powered by the serpantine belt, when the alternator goes, your power steering quits and so does your water pump. This happened to me driving through the Ozarks in my D1, again as I was driving out of Ruidoso, NM to Roswell in my 2000 D2, and a third time on I-44 between Tulsa and OKC.

When I say that the LR3 is more reliable, I mean that you just dont have the constant repair issues that plague the earlier Buick 215 engine based models. Specifically the ancillary component failures, the valve jobs, engine seal and gasket leaks, electronic issues, brake electronic problems on the D2s, and the P38 BECM, air suspension, and HVAC issues. The 94 & 95 Discos with the 14CUX (distributor) electronics seem to be a little less problematic than the 1996-1999 GEMS based 3.9, 4.0 & 4.6 engines. The Bosch electronics in the DII and P38 seemed to be alot better thant he GEMS based Rovers, however those DIIs still had their funky ABS issues (search three amigos on Dweb and other boards). Another common Bosch era engine problem was head gasket failures. Someone posted the Robison Service buying advice link. THat is a great primer on all of the early (Pre 03 RR and pre 05 LR3) models. Those early models are simply more frustrating than the LR3. Would I ever buy another one; yeah, because I am a Rover junkie.

So again, my sincere recommendation is to buy an LR3 and use it. You will love it. There is a greater chance that you wont love the DII, as the DII falls into what I call the "Love/Hate" model years which encompasses every modern model and related model year up until 03 for the Range Rovers and 05 for the LR3s. If you just want to go beat the hell out of it in the woods (as the OP mentioned in a recent post), then I would go find a 94-95 D1 or RR Classic short wheel base and do so. But then again, if you're beating the hell out of it off road, you're doing it wrong. Just my opinion; my Rovers have all been daily drivers and I have taken all of them off road on some challenging moderate trails, and I haven't damaged them (well, slight dent in the passenger front door of my D1 when I was off road my first time - came down on the rocker panel too hard without having sliders).

 

[spikemd]

I agree that the LR3 is light-years ahead of the P38 and discos. But prices are around $15k or so, which for some is a lot for a weekend rig. He can always sell his other car and use the LR3 full-time which is a great alternative.

Don't forget to look at Justin's (Lucky8) new P38 build. He is bringing some great Terrafirma accessories/mods over from the UK for the P38. I can't wait to see how the truck turns out.

Go out and drive all three trucks. See the differences and get a feel for each one. They are all very different vehicles. You will see many run-down vehicles on the market, so be picky. Need I say "steer clear of any rovers with 22s?"

That P38 in San Diego with rack and accessories sounds like a nice find, especially considering the money put into the rack,etc. You can drive it back home through Moab/Arizona/Colorado and have an awesome trip!

Also, if you can find a nice sorted range rover classic, that could be a nice option as well. But it will be hard to find a rust-free example on the east coast. The classics are just that...classic...

 

[DreamingOfExpeditions]

....

Go out and drive all three trucks. See the differences and get a feel for each one. They are all very different vehicles. You will see many run-down vehicles on the market, so be picky. Need I say "steer clear of any rovers with 22s?"

....

Yeah I think its funny, my initial browsing of the interwebs shows many of these "dubbed out" LR's and RR on the market. I grew up in a 4x4 and streetrod family, I always find it ironic when people take such capable vehicles and completely make them useless.

This is exactly the kind of discussion I'm looking for. Tinkering doesn't scare me, and the "what to look for threads" are pretty clear.

So the next question is, with all these over priced Rovers out there, do people know what they have and are hoping for some one to buy the Rover name or are sellers generally easily convinced once you explain to them the condition of the vehicle and the true market value? It seems that a lot of them are priced at 2x KBB. I don't care what car it is, no way am I paying that much of a premium. I haven't yet, and I aint starting!

I saw a yellow Range Rover, 1999ish I think, priced at 15K! Edmunds gave it a high pricing of 7500 I think, and thats for a well sorted RR. There was a little blurb in the seller note "Converted to Coils!" Since this was a blinged out unit, it kind of suggest to me, someone got in over their head, and quite possibly its not a great RR, and maybe the real value is around 5-6 grand.

BTW I'm a planner and thinker, I'm looking at this for 2013 (next bonus...) so no hurry. As much education as I can get so to speak. So quick wants for those that don't read back, Dirt Road trail rig, roof top tent, occasional family of 5 plus doberdork, but most likely a weekend camping/fish mobile with me and the older boy!

 

[Mack73]

Save some more money and go with an LR3 - unless you like the older rigs and getting your hands dirty.

I love my LR3 and it is extremely capable offroad. I am comtemplating picking up a RRC/DI or DII just so I have something to tinker with.

 

[dcarr1971]

IIRC, the yellow P38s were Kalahari Editions (or something like that). They few that I've seen were priced a little higher than expected, but $15k is crazy. I seem to remember they had a black leather interior with gold piping, but I never saw anything about other up-rated features.

Also, if you stumble across a Calloway Edition P38 you probably want to stay away from it too. My Rover mechanic friend told me they have a different intake, something fails on them, and at this point they are pretty much unobtainium if you have to replace it...

 

[Antichrist]

I am a tinkerer. I fear nothing mechanical. Even Rovers (Murphy will probably strike me down for this!) Worse comes to worse with the P38 I'll make it a diesel ala Redrover. I also have an affliction for exotic vehicles. This would not be my daily driver, but a project car, that theoretically could be passed onto the oldest boy when his time comes. I'm not buying new, or lightly used. I've got a cash budget, but just like everything, it's limited. These two vehicles are just about in that range, taking into account ancillaries, rebuilds, failures and the like.

So on a side by side comparison, not whether or not to, what are the advantages? My goal for a vehicle is something that I can scratch the paint on. Get muddy inside and out. take for a day fishing or weekend camping, and not have to worry about crapping it up. Wash and wear so to speak.

Depending on what you want in terms of luxury a diesel Defender 110 (around an 85 or 86) would meet the the criteria. And are more "wash and wear" than a P38, DII or DIII could every dream of being.
I know it wasn't mentioned as an option, but I believe certainly worth considering. Or even a nice US spec 109. It's hard to say for sure, since you didn't mention why you were limiting yourself to a P38 or DII.