Paging Hilldweller and other light geeks...

[Hilldweller]

Yes; I like to run good wire with relays for headlights: http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/relays/relays.html

But I get nervous when I hear somebody say they're going to run HIDs on a vehicle that didn't come with HIDs. Makes me wonder if they're going to do it safely & legally or drop in something cheap and stinky.
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

gaap master on this forum installed a legal HID kit in his Toyota 60 series along with a custom wire harness. It works great.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/95693-Another-volunteer-for-7-quot-round-headlight
http://www.rallylights.com/sm6024bx...eadlamp-kit-for-7-sealed-beam-conversion.html

Lights aren't all that complicated in their most simple form. Throw in a source, some power, a reflector. Bam; there's light.
But safety lighting? It has to comply with a few rules, laws, and physics.

Simply putting a rebased HID capsule into a reflector like the one in the Hella 500 doesn't produce results that are safe and legal to use on the road. The reflector isn't made for that burner; and it's a crappy reflector to start with...
Hella does make a nice little HID, the 4000 (again), but it's pricey.

You don't need a stinkload of light to safely see where you're going. You need enough light in the right places. And you need to not have light in the wrong places so you don't blind oncoming drivers ---- that's just as important and the reason there are laws about lighting.

 

[kojackJKU]

Yes; I like to run good wire with relays for headlights: http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/relays/relays.html

But I get nervous when I hear somebody say they're going to run HIDs on a vehicle that didn't come with HIDs. Makes me wonder if they're going to do it safely & legally or drop in something cheap and stinky.
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

gaap master on this forum installed a legal HID kit in his Toyota 60 series along with a custom wire harness. It works great.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/95693-Another-volunteer-for-7-quot-round-headlight
http://www.rallylights.com/sm6024bx...eadlamp-kit-for-7-sealed-beam-conversion.html

Lights aren't all that complicated in their most simple form. Throw in a source, some power, a reflector. Bam; there's light.
But safety lighting? It has to comply with a few rules, laws, and physics.

Simply putting a rebased HID capsule into a reflector like the one in the Hella 500 doesn't produce results that are safe and legal to use on the road. The reflector isn't made for that burner; and it's a crappy reflector to start with...
Hella does make a nice little HID, the 4000 (again), but it's pricey.

You don't need a stinkload of light to safely see where you're going. You need enough light in the right places. And you need to not have light in the wrong places so you don't blind oncoming drivers ---- that's just as important and the reason there are laws about lighting.

I take anything on Mr. Sterns site with a grain of salt. I'm using projectors in low beam for proper cut off. High beam is not so important for me as you don't use them in on coming traffic. My hella 500 driving beams with hid work just fine and I would never run any aux. Light in oncoming traffic. That's being a prick. I can tell you from personal experience that the 500 with an hid retro kit works, and works very very well.

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[Hilldweller]

I take anything on Mr. Sterns site with a grain of salt.

Yes; facts are usually sodium free. Good call.

I'm using projectors in low beam for proper cut off.

What kind of projectors? Ones meant for a filament sourced bulb? Ones meant for an HID source?
Direct fit from the same sort of vehicle? Retrofit like the Hella 90mm that's DOT compliant?

High beam is not so important for me as you don't use them in on coming traffic.

Hopefully you'll dim them in time not to blind anyone but they're still fairly important.

My hella 500 driving beams with hid work just fine and I would never run any aux. Light in oncoming traffic. That's being a prick. I can tell you from personal experience that the 500 with an hid retro kit works, and works very very well.

Offroad lights are for offroad and I don't have any problem with people going psycho with HID there. I've done it and will do it til I die....
But that's offroad.


He's looking for something to use on the road. And the advice to upgrade his headlights is great --- good headlights are the single best mod you can make for forward lighting if your rig doesn't have them already.
Foglights to run with the headlights? No. Not usually. Not unless you live in a few areas (like here) where you often drive at a snail's pace on twisty roads in the fog --- that's my morning commute half the time and I use foglights.
But most people don't need them.
Most people need good headlights and a set of good driving lights. If you're in the soup often, add good foglights. If you're offroad and driving rally-fast, add some big HIDs. If you're offroad and driving slow and rocky, then I like LEDs.

Best place to learn about automotive lighting besides having Dan in the room with you: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?87-Automotive-Motorcycles-Included

 

[kojackJKU]

Mr stern blows lots of smoke my friend. Retro into a housing for my suburban. I know that the stock housings are horrible for hid. I use only headlights for on road driving, well low beam with factory fogs. For high beam its all bets are off. My hid are blazing because we have over 100,000 moose on our island and they roam the highways. Its a necessary price of equipment when driving at night on our highway. Mine are toggled my by high beam switch. No blinding traffic. My hella 500s are awesome for the night driving I do. And very price friendly. As I said earlier, there is no comparison in hid and led for the driving I do. Hid hands down. I know lots of people with different housings than stock Chev ones with hid and the results are fine. As witnessed first hand. The anti hid Nazi stern says the don't work period is full of it. Use the right housing even one not designed for it initially but still puts light where you need and not in everyone's eyes is fine by me.

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[Hilldweller]

Mr stern blows lots of smoke my friend. Retro into a housing for my suburban. I know that the stock housings are horrible for hid. I use only headlights for on road driving, well low beam with factory fogs. For high beam its all bets are off. My hid are blazing because we have over 100,000 moose on our island and they roam the highways. Its a necessary price of equipment when driving at night on our highway. Mine are toggled my by high beam switch. No blinding traffic. My hella 500s are awesome for the night driving I do. And very price friendly. As I said earlier, there is no comparison in hid and led for the driving I do. Hid hands down. I know lots of people with different housings than stock Chev ones with hid and the results are fine. As witnessed first hand. The anti hid Nazi stern says the don't work period is full of it. Use the right housing even one not designed for it initially but still puts light where you need and not in everyone's eyes is fine by me.

As somebody that works in a training lab for test and measurement equipment, I'm so convinced now that your subjective opinion on light performance is more accurate than objective measurement by professionals using meters purpose-built for the application...
In fact, why measure anything at all?
Build a house using squares, plums, and tape measures? Why when you can just eyeball it!
Who needs science and facts anyhow.

 

[kojackJKU]

Two different things. A house NEEDs to be exact.....I'm a commercial contractor, BTW. However lighting does not need to be exact. If I went by numbers, I would have a 50" led with jw speaker lights as they test the best. However the real world beam pattern of my truck lites are much better than my friends jw's. And my hella 500s were put down as useless by Mr stern, however real world results say otherwise, contrary to the "lab tests". Its like the camera forums and the pixel peepers. They put down everything that didn't test a 100%. However, when have you ever looked at a photo at full crop zoomed in digitally at 500% magnification. In order to print that photo it would have to be about 150 ' long to even see what it is.

Again apples to oranges. I could use high bay lighting or metal halaides in the buildings I design, both are different but accomplish similar things, not an exact art.

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[JamesW]

Mr stern blows lots of smoke my friend. Retro into a housing for my suburban. I know that the stock housings are horrible for hid. I use only headlights for on road driving, well low beam with factory fogs. For high beam its all bets are off. My hid are blazing because we have over 100,000 moose on our island and they roam the highways. Its a necessary price of equipment when driving at night on our highway. Mine are toggled my by high beam switch. No blinding traffic. My hella 500s are awesome for the night driving I do. And very price friendly. As I said earlier, there is no comparison in hid and led for the driving I do. Hid hands down. I know lots of people with different housings than stock Chev ones with hid and the results are fine. As witnessed first hand. The anti hid Nazi stern says the don't work period is full of it. Use the right housing even one not designed for it initially but still puts light where you need and not in everyone's eyes is fine by me.

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I agree with you,there is a lot of hot air there but I wouldn't say it's incorrect,just going into a small bit too much detail over super trivial stuff and making it seem like it makes a huge difference,some of it is true,but it is fairly one sided too. It's more a site full of facts that support his opinion and conveniently leave out the rest. Preaches his own opinion and probably doesn't even listen to anyone else,and has a load of armchair experts following him blindly and taking his word as gospel

I agree that you can have something that in theory and simulation seems perfect,gets built and tested,and either produces completely different results to the simulation,or else the same,but put it into use and it is completely unusable/unsuitable. You can put a set of lights into a car and dance around in front of it with a lux meter and take a thousand readings,and it tests perfectly,it it might actually be the wrong light for the person themselves. Imagine a chair,and it is tested by measuring the width of the seat,the length of it,the height of the back,and the angle in relation to the seat. In theory you could have built the perfect chair,everything measures up right,but in reality there is splinters sticking out of it left right and centre,it weeps sap and creaks like a mo-fo. A chair that measures up to all the requirements,but go to use it and it is a terrible experience. Same goes for anything,cakes,amplifiers,lights,photography and just about everything else.

I don't believe that if you spend a fortune on a pair of hella 4000 HID lights that you are necessarily getting 3 - 4 times the performance that you would be getting out of a relatively cheap pair. You aren't going to be driving against anyone with them on anyway.

 

[AlaricD]

I take anything on Mr. Sterns site with a grain of salt.

But does that salt supply iodide, a necessary nutrient?

I'm using projectors in low beam for proper cut off.

Cutoff is not the most important determinant for a beam's safety and performance. Not by a long shot. It's not the cutoff that you need to worry about, it's the reflector bowl. The distribution of light that comes out under the cutoff is completely wrong when the wrong shape light source is used.

Remember, a filament light source is an approximation of a point source. An arc-discharge light source has TWO hotspots, not one, and those hotspots are equidistant from what would be the light center length of a filament bulb. The optics are way out of focus from the start. You can't adjust for this by reaiming. It's doomed from the start.

My hella 500 driving beams with hid work just fine. I can tell you from personal experience that the 500 with an hid retro kit works, and works very very well.

The Hella 500s weren't the greatest lamps in the first place when using the light sources for which they were designed. Changing to an arc-discharge light source made already borderline lamps absolutely bad. Your subjective impression does not outweigh objective fact.

Mr stern blows lots of smoke my friend.

Must be low-sodium smoke, too. Be sure to take it with a grain of iodized salt.
It seems that when people are out-educated and out-facted by someone else, the first thing they do is resort to the meaningless remarks. What's next? Saying he's "got a lot of book-learnin' but he ain't gots no common sense"?

I use only headlights for on road driving, well low beam with factory fogs.

You are, of course, only using the fog lamps at speeds below 30mph, and only in genuinely foggy conditions, right? Because if you're not, you're oversaturating the foreground with light, which actually hurts your ability to see farther down the road. Running fog lamps with low beams at highway speeds in clear weather is a bad idea.

Besides, a properly-designed low beam headlamp has all but eliminated the need for fog lamps-- not to mention that factory fog lamps are typically toys.

Use the right housing even one not designed for it initially but still puts light where you need and not in everyone's eyes is fine by me.

If it's not the right optics for the light source, it's going to put light in everyone's eyes.

Two different things. A house NEEDs to be exact.....I'm a commercial contractor, BTW.

But you're not a lighting engineer. You might also not be an LA or PE. When you receive a set of plans, would you know if the PE's stamp wasn't fraudulent? The building might "look good", but it might also fall down in the next windstorm or magnitude 2.3 earthquake.

However lighting does not need to be exact.

Actually, it does. Have you seen the actual spec sheets (not marketing material, but real, live, genuine spec sheets) for the Philips X-Treme Power HB4? There are some mighty tight tolerances in there!

If I went by numbers, I would have a 50" led with jw speaker lights as they test the best. However the real world beam pattern of my truck lites are much better than my friends jw's.

Which JW Speaker, and which Truck-Lites? The JW Speaker 8900 (intended to replace the H6054) soundly smacks the Truck-Lites down. Not that the Truck-Lites are *bad*, they are objectively good, but they have some odd artifacting and also aren't optically aimed.

And my hella 500s were put down as useless by Mr stern, however real world results say otherwise, contrary to the "lab tests".

Lab tests are what count. Real-world tests are subjective. Personal preference does not determine how a lamp performs or its suitability for a task.

I could use high bay lighting or metal halaides in the buildings I design, both are different but accomplish similar things, not an exact art.

This is because the building is not hurtling down the highway at 65mph. This building is not signaling a turn at an intersection, only to have the signal not seen because of excessive glare from a lamp that has the wrong light source in it. Also-- you design buildings? So, you're an RA in addition to being a contractor?

I agree that you can have something that in theory and simulation seems perfect,gets built and tested,and either produces completely different results to the simulation,or else the same,but put it into use and it is completely unusable/unsuitable.

If it was designed properly, any faults in the real application are at the building stage.

You can put a set of lights into a car and dance around in front of it with a lux meter and take a thousand readings,and it tests perfectly,it it might actually be the wrong light for the person themselves.

That would mean the person needs to pay a visit to the optician and may even be referred to an opthalmogist.

Imagine a chair,and it is tested by measuring the width of the seat,the length of it,the height of the back,and the angle in relation to the seat. In theory you could have built the perfect chair,everything measures up right,but in reality there is splinters sticking out of it left right and centre,it weeps sap and creaks like a mo-fo. A chair that measures up to all the requirements,but go to use it and it is a terrible experience.

That's because whoever built it couldn't follow instructions. They didn't use the specified materials. They did not follow the spec for finishing. They used poor tools. The failure was in how it was built, not in the design (so long as the design specified materials, of course). That's the entire point of drawing up requirements and plans and spec sheets. The plans are so the thing can be made again, over and over, by different people if need be. Just like we use the written word to ensure a message is communicated. Plans MEAN things.

Same goes for anything,cakes,amplifiers,lights,photography and just about everything else.

Cake tastes bad when Goofus makes it, but good when Gallant makes it? Goofus dumps random stuff in the mixing bowl, Gallant measures every ingredient carefully.
Amplifier should sound AWESOME according to the circuit diagram, but actually sounds terrible? Goofus subs in resistors with a 10% tolerance, Gallant uses resistors with a .1% tolerance.
Lamp SHOULD produce an excellent beam pattern? Goofus puts arc-discharge light sources in the lamp assembly, Gallant uses the filament light source specified in the design.

Seeing a pattern here?

 

[Hilldweller]

Welcome to the forum AlaricD.

 

[kojackJKU]

wow, I guess I was told. :bowdown:

 

[kojackJKU]

next question, why would I buy a light that may test better with your little tests but not be a good driving to my eyes? HMMMMM? Just because it works better in your little tests, doesn't mean it performs well in real world. Again, I go back to my 500s. THEY WORK! They cut a huge ************* hole in the night. My truck lite head lights are not even noticeable when they are on. Either close range or obviously long distance. I personally saw 1000m of light out of my lights. I parked, picked a point that I could see illuminated by my lights then measured the distance using my odometer. not exact but frigging close enough. it was 1 km away from where I started. It was a rock, not a reflector as well. So, for something that is so "so called ****TY" they ************* work great for me! I really don't need your approval, or Mr. Stern's for that matter. I have parked next to a bunch of friends with different types of lights of various makes and models. Mine has worked just as good if not better.

Your making sound like my 500s does not even make it past my factory fog lights.

 

[Hilldweller]

...
Your making sound like my 500s does not even make it past my factory fog lights.

No he's not.
Let me try an analogy with singing, quality vs volume.

Roseanne singing the National anthem ---- it was loud. Like Hella 500s with HID capsules retrofitted into them.


vs Alison Krauss singing Down to the River to Pray. Like a Jeep Grand Cherokee retrofitted with HIR bulbs


It's not just about big light. Not just about stinkloads of it. It's about precision, focus. Light where you want it in the right amount; and no light where you don't want any.
There is a distinct difference. And, just like anything else where quality matters, the more of an enthusiast you are about it, the more it matters...

 

[kojackJKU]

My lights work great for me!

 

[peneumbra]

Of course, the REAL question is, which of these lights work best in the daytime...

 

[AlaricD]

Welcome to the forum AlaricD.

Thanks!

next question, why would I buy a light that may test better with your little tests but not be a good driving to my eyes? HMMMMM?

Objective vs. subjective. It's that simple.

Just because it works better in your little tests, doesn't mean it performs well in real world.

So, what's the point in even having the tests and the standards and regulations and the like? Maybe because the tests *mean something*. It doesn't cut it just to look at the beam and go "wow, that's good enough for me".

Again, I go back to my 500s. THEY WORK! They cut a huge ************* hole in the night.

And overwhelm your optical system, and detract from your ability to see the distant things you're trying not to hit.

You know, it's EASY for a lighting manufacturer to make a product that *impresses the driver*. Not so easy to make one that actually *performs safely and effectively*.

I really don't need your approval, or Mr. Stern's for that matter.

Are you sure? You're going to great lengths in an attempt to justify your choices, or convince us that we're wrong. Why are you so dead set on us congratulating you for your bad purchasing decisions? Why are you so keen to reiterate a falsehood over and over?

Your making sound like my 500s does not even make it past my factory fog lights.

I never said that. I gave information on why running fog lamps in conditions inappropriate for fog lamps is a bad idea, but I never compared the 500s to fog lamps.

It's not just about big light. Not just about stinkloads of it. It's about precision, focus. Light where you want it in the right amount; and no light where you don't want any.
There is a distinct difference. And, just like anything else where quality matters, the more of an enthusiast you are about it, the more it matters...

Another "musical" example is listening to your favorite music on quality Sennheiser headphones at reasonable levels, vs. plugging a Peavey bass amp into your .MP3 player. Yeah, that Peavey bass amp is going to be louder, but you miss the finer details, and the musicality is drowned out in a wall of loud.

My lights work great for me!

You might think they do, but that's all that is-- it's your opinion. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you must remember that facts are true no matter what your opinion of them.
Your love for your bad-lights-made-worse is no basis for recommending others get bad lights and make them worse, especially when doing it requires using illegal parts (HID kits, in themselves, are illegal, as they are designed to fit in regulated motor vehicle equipment but render it functionally inoperative). You might think driving around in clear weather at highway speeds with factory fog lamps on is similarly great, but again, that's an uninformed opinion. The facts state that running fog lamps in clear weather (and at speeds exceeding 35mph in *any* weather) is a bad idea.