Patrol (coil) vs. Land Cruiser HD (HZJ 79)

[Oshkosh-P]

Hello,

since the big U.S. trucks seem to be less and less interesting the more i look into the dimensions and the available parts, maybe the japanese trucks are worth a try.

Problem is: The HD Land Cruisers are pretty rare over here, while the normal J9/J12 are probably not as tough as the nissan patrol.

But can the patrol keep up in the chassis and axle department with the pretty wideley used Toyota HZJ 79? So might it be worth to search for on even tho it's more costly?

Greetings

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Where is here?

 

[Longrange308]

Where is here?

In one of his other posts, he eluded to Europe..

 

[proper4wd]

The coil sprung Patrols have axles and running gear beyond Land Cruiser in strength. A Patrol GU front axle in particular makes an 80 series LC front axle look very small. However, the Patrol is also a larger and heavier vehicle.

 

[Oshkosh-P]

Yeah that's what i heard too, but what about the frame? The Land Cruiser HD 70's got kinda small rails (145x55mm boxed) but pretty thick steel, 4mm!

Well i think the HDJ 80 is at least the same size as a patrol, of course the 70 series is quite smaller, which might be beneficial in the mountains...

 

[faulco]

The patrol will not let you down. The diffs and axle are soooo much stronger than the cruiser. You don't hear of the patrol eating a diff. The only downside to the patrol is the 2000-2002 zd30, 3.0 tdi engine. Piston issues, altho the risks can be reduced. After 2002 they modified them and are a lot better. Still suggest the full Nads install. Drives so much nicer and you can see and monitor what's going on in your engine.
The cruiser will be a little more civilised on the tarmac and towing but I would never swap my patrol for a cruiser. There is a reason patrols are holding their money in Europe now. It's what's wanted for export to Africa. Obviously I'm biased

You can always try and find a rare swb patrol if size is an issue. Just go to patrol4x4.com and do some research. They are surprisingly open and honest about the difference in 4bys on there. If you give a list of your requirements they will give you the best 4by for you. There is even all the research you could imagine for your new patrol purchase

 

[G_E_K_O Expedition]

Hi
I own both the LWB Y61 Patrol and the HDJ-80. They are exactly the same in external size. More room and confort for the passengers inside the Patrol. I can say a Patrol is capable to go everywhere. But it is the biggest vehicle I would use for my off-road tours. Tracks can be very narrow in Europe. But the Patrol (with 12,5" tires and rims with 2x40mm of offset) always succeeded. A short wheel base LC-70 is not a solution for touring. Fare too small. At least a 73 if you're touring alone. A Patrol with the right engine is more reliable than a 80 serie. I stopped counting how many 80's I've seen or heard of with broken front diff or rebuild engine (ok, the 1-HD-T or 24 valve are fantastic engines, but most of them have been rebuild).
The 78/79 is a very strong platform. But no more a solution as soon as you've appreciated the confort of a tourer on coils. Great room inside a 78… but pretty narrow too. Stability can be an issue with the very narrow rear axle.

All the best.
Nico

 

[UK4X4]

Biased.......Nissan :safari-rig:

 

[Oshkosh-P]

@faulco, yeah i guess the axles are indeed very nice, but it sounds like you compare the patrol to the Land Cruiser J9/12? Of course in this case the patrol will win any toughness competition. easy. but the lanc cruiser 7 series is a different animal, with a very big reputation.

@
G_E_K_O Expedition



Thank you very much for your post! It is soo rare to find someone who can really compare those two direcly. So the patrol axle is stronger than even the wide&big HD 80 axle? really? i always heard this is the best axle in it's weight class, even stronger then the HZJ 79 axles?

Could you do me a huge favor an measure the boxed frame between the axles of both vehicles? Since you got em both an solid big wheels, it should be easy to get near by. The thickness however might be tricky, but with this data we can stop all the guessing and discussion. Especially since in this case, the frames are really comparable, because they are both coil spring vehicles of similiar dimensions. The HZZ 79 could have a weaker frame and still hold its own better, because leaf springs do not put that much stress on a frame and the whole vehicle is much more narrow. But the HDJ 80 and Patrol Y 62, are very similar, so whoever has the bigger/thicker rails, has the better frame. case closed. (except of course for steel quality, but this is more important for flexible frames used on bigger trucks)

Greetings

 

[G_E_K_O Expedition]

Hi

I don't agree with you. The one with the bigger / thicker rails si not necessarily the best. There is other considerations as the design, the steel quality, the reinforcements done on the key zones, the quality of the welding and how the chassis is manufactured (rails formed with water jets can be damned stronger).
Anyway, both the Patrol's and the 80-serie's chassis are great and incredibly strong. I would also consider the quality of the suspension as the MOST important factor to preserve your chassis and vehicle. springs have to match the weight of the rig and shocks have to do their job from the early morning to the night (and not only the first two hours).

As a comparison, I took the following measurements:
HDJ-80: height 15cm / width 6cm / thickness 4mm
Patrol: height 17cm / width 7cm / thickness 3.5mm, doubled in the front area, 3.5mm rail inside the outer 3.5mm frame.

Regarding the axles. Patrol axles are by fare the strongest. End of discussion. I never heard or saw any Patrol breaking an axle while touring. In the same time, I saw or heard of maybe more than 20 broken front axles on 80-series while touring. I'm just back from Iceland where I discussed with a guy operating 4 Patrols for off-road tours and icefield exploration. The common tire size is 44" x 16.5". One is equipped with huge 46" x 19.5" tires and a V8 350 hp engine. All the drivetrain, gearbox, transfer, axles etc... remain stock. 2 axles broken due to an error (front locker engaged on hard ground). No more than that, and all of them have about 500'000km. I let you make your own conlusions.

All the best
Nico

 

[Oshkosh-P]

Yeah i agree, reinforcements, steel quality and suspension are of course also very important. But i don't think that these two will differ too much in the steel quality department, of course the HDJ 80 was a lot more expensive, but the frame design is so similiar, it would not make too much sense to use drastically different kinds of steele.

The crossmembers are also important of course, as far as i know, both got 3 pipe.shaped which are weldet through and through and 1 or 2 not so massive crossmembers which seem to hevae another purpose.

The suspension should be pretty comparable as well,the 80 is well known for a very flexible suspension, this might of course be a plus.

Thank you very much for the measurements, i think for a basic comparsion, it's the most objective way after all. How did you manage to measure the thickness? This is often pretty difficult to do. So the Patrol actually has the stronger frame by the numbers, even stronger than the HDJ 70. But still the 7 series land cruiser is allowed bigger weights as the patrol, even bigger then the leaf spring patrol. Why is this the case if both the frame and axles are at least of the same if not greater strenght?

Edit: What do you meand by doubles? As far as i know, both frames are fully boxed, formed by two C-profile welded together, doubling the thickness in the middle.

Greetings

 

[G_E_K_O Expedition]

What do you meand by doubles? As far as i know, both frames are fully boxed, formed by two C-profile welded together.

In the front par of the Patrol's chassis, there is partially a second rail inside the first, making in some area a thickness of about 7mm.

 

[Oshkosh-P]

Ah ok, nice, even stronger.

How did you get those small differences in thickness between the two with this precision? Do you agree that the patrol frame can be considered to be stronger?

 

[RMP&O]

Ah ok, nice, even stronger.

How did you get those small differences in thickness between the two with this precision? Do you agree that the patrol frame can be considered to be stronger?

micrometer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micrometer

 

[RMP&O]

In the front par of the Patrol's chassis, there is partially a second rail inside the first, making in some area a thickness of about 7mm.

I have cut this 2nd rail in half before on a 160-series Patrol. I believe the 2nd inner rail to be hardened a lot. Super hard to cut it in half while the outer rail was much easier.

I am unsure on Y60-present Patrol but earlier ones the frames were superior to a Cruiser. 1960-1980 the Patrol frame was 5x or more stronger. For example, a SWB Patrol from this era had a fully boxed frame with 5 cross members. Not so on the Cruiser. The 160-series Patrol from the 1980s in comparison to the 60-series Cruiser is also superior, although Toyota started making the frames stronger with this series. The 80-series Cruiser frame is of great quality and very well built frame although they are known to have a few issues under a lot of stress. In particular on the panhard mounts and around the steering box mounts. Can't say I recall ever hearing of many if any people with problems on a Patrol frame from any generation. Oh wait, I do recall 160-series Patrols and G61s having a few issues with shackle/leaf hanger mounts when put under long term super hard use, ie cracks.

When comparing diffs, axles and so forth one should not just think about failure reports. Quality of steel, what it is made from and or grade of steel, spline count on axle shafts, ring and pinion sizes, hub & spindle sizes should all be taken into account. Full float or not for rear axle, ect ect ect. Lot's to think about and compare when wanting to be serious about a comparision between say a Y60 Patrol and an 80-series Cruiser.

FYI, Nissan diffs are model numbers denoting ring gear size in mm. An H233 is a 233mm ring gear while an H260 is a 260mm ring gear. Pinion sizes and designs also heavily come into play when talking diff strength.

Suspensions are very similar on the two in the rear but less so on the front. In the rear the Patrol is better simply because Nissan mounted the shocks behind the rear axle unlike the 80 where they are in front. In front the 80 is a pretty standard radius arm, the Patrol is a slightly different radius arm set up. Both suffer from the same problems when lifting beyond 2-3".

Cheers