Pintle Hooks
- Thread starter ken richardson
- Start date
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
And I'm certainly sure everyone who uses a pintle for towing has never even so much as thought of hooking a strap onto them, so it's naturally just a rhetorical question. A number of people I've seen have put regular pintle hooks on the rear of their Cruisers primarily for recovery, so I didn't think it's was a stupid question. Most people run double purpose points with a 2" receiver bracket adapter in their tow point.MoGas said:
Rezarf <><
Explorer
Dave,
I think you are right, I have one of those on the rear of my crusier and wouldn't want to subject the ball to the shock loads associated with a hard pull. That said, on a regular pintle I did it all the time.
I bet it would work, but shock loading the ball can't be good in the long haul.
I think you are right, I have one of those on the rear of my crusier and wouldn't want to subject the ball to the shock loads associated with a hard pull. That said, on a regular pintle I did it all the time.
I bet it would work, but shock loading the ball can't be good in the long haul.
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
I remain unconvinced that the ball is any less strong than the rest of the component. It should be stronger due to material choices available to it's manufacturing method and it has the potential to be far stronger than the rest of the component.
That said, the potential problem area I see is the junction of the two failing. Not either in isolation.
Still, if the component is rated for 5k lbs towing weight then it, at very minimum, is designed for 10k lbs as the loading criteria and should be more in the 20k+ lbs range. A crude approximation of max Impulse loads would be 3X to 4X the vehicle weight, which should be OK but getting close to marginal within 40's, Mini's/Taco's and similarly sized vehicles since the very idea of a strap stretching is to reduce Impulse overloadings.
Which leaves the question of if a strap can work it's way thru the gap between the hook and the 'gate.' That, and the junction failure are the $64 questions to me.
That said, the potential problem area I see is the junction of the two failing. Not either in isolation.
Still, if the component is rated for 5k lbs towing weight then it, at very minimum, is designed for 10k lbs as the loading criteria and should be more in the 20k+ lbs range. A crude approximation of max Impulse loads would be 3X to 4X the vehicle weight, which should be OK but getting close to marginal within 40's, Mini's/Taco's and similarly sized vehicles since the very idea of a strap stretching is to reduce Impulse overloadings.
Which leaves the question of if a strap can work it's way thru the gap between the hook and the 'gate.' That, and the junction failure are the $64 questions to me.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Would it matter where the force is put on the ball? A trailer in designed use has the tongue sitting on the ball and a recovery puts the force on the neck. Just looking at it, seems like it wouldn't matter much other than what is exactly used to make the recovery attachment. I mean a hook around the shank of the trailer ball is a stress riser, for example.ntsqd said:
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DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Just a strap is what I and anyone on the other end of my strap would do.ntsqd said:
I was just noting that a metal hook or shackle around a trailer ball would be a very serious issue.
Anyway, my question would be if having the trailer tongue on the ball verses a strap eye around the shank has an significant difference in the force through the trailer ball.
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
Agreed, which is why I was a bit confused. One would think that it has been said often enough that people wouldn't buy those straps with metal hooks or do similarly dangerous things, but once in a while such a story still comes along.
I don't see the method of loading the ball as being important. Anything the trailer coupler can do to the ball is further cantilevered away from the ball's mounting surface than anything the strap can do.
In no way would I suggest or advocate using hardware to attach to a regular ball, or even attaching to a regular ball without hardware. I'm only discussing the possible option of using a pintle hook as a strap attachment point and voicing a concern about the strap being able to escape between the hook/ball and the gate or latch. If that isn't possible and the pintle hitch is rated to at least the stuck vehicle's expected resistance, then I don't see a problem with using it (making the assumption that what the hook is attached to is also up to the task).
I suspect that where people get into trouble is that they don't pay attention to their equipment's ratings. OK, so they've got this 20k lbs rated extraction strap, but they've dropped it (in dangerous form) over a 2.5k lbs rated tow ball? Even at F.S = 4 that's only 10k lbs. Did they really think that the strap would break first?
There are those who, rightly so, insist on using some sort of clevis or shackle. What are the working load limits of those? I know mine are not rated as high as they should be, they may likely fail b4 the strap breaks. (Ever hefted a 20k lbs shackle?) However, their Working Load Limit rating is radically reduced because of their intended overhead lifting application. I seem to recall that anything intended for overhead use has to have at LEAST a Factor of Safety of 4. So my 4k lbs shackles should be good to 16k lbs before venturing into issues with material or mfg related failures.
Just this morning I stumbled onto a nice looking part that bolts to a bumper or frame and allows the use of a shackle thru an eyelet. The bolt flange was welded to the eyelet part. So is there enough weld bead length there to not shear off when loaded? From what I could see the answer is No.
My point is that you have to consider the whole system's connections, not just the obvious ones.
I don't see the method of loading the ball as being important. Anything the trailer coupler can do to the ball is further cantilevered away from the ball's mounting surface than anything the strap can do.
In no way would I suggest or advocate using hardware to attach to a regular ball, or even attaching to a regular ball without hardware. I'm only discussing the possible option of using a pintle hook as a strap attachment point and voicing a concern about the strap being able to escape between the hook/ball and the gate or latch. If that isn't possible and the pintle hitch is rated to at least the stuck vehicle's expected resistance, then I don't see a problem with using it (making the assumption that what the hook is attached to is also up to the task).
I suspect that where people get into trouble is that they don't pay attention to their equipment's ratings. OK, so they've got this 20k lbs rated extraction strap, but they've dropped it (in dangerous form) over a 2.5k lbs rated tow ball? Even at F.S = 4 that's only 10k lbs. Did they really think that the strap would break first?
There are those who, rightly so, insist on using some sort of clevis or shackle. What are the working load limits of those? I know mine are not rated as high as they should be, they may likely fail b4 the strap breaks. (Ever hefted a 20k lbs shackle?) However, their Working Load Limit rating is radically reduced because of their intended overhead lifting application. I seem to recall that anything intended for overhead use has to have at LEAST a Factor of Safety of 4. So my 4k lbs shackles should be good to 16k lbs before venturing into issues with material or mfg related failures.
Just this morning I stumbled onto a nice looking part that bolts to a bumper or frame and allows the use of a shackle thru an eyelet. The bolt flange was welded to the eyelet part. So is there enough weld bead length there to not shear off when loaded? From what I could see the answer is No.
My point is that you have to consider the whole system's connections, not just the obvious ones.
Clutch
<---Pass
If you don't mind the KRR-CLUNK sound of a pintle, go for it.
Our jackhammer compressor had a pintle...the sound of it drove me nuts, you could feel it banging around back there too. That is just driving on the street and to construction sites, couldn't imagine towing an offroad trailer with it. KRR-CLUNK-KRR-CLUNK-KRR-CLUNK...all the way down the trail, no thanks.
I would go with the Lock N' Roll or a Tregg.
Our jackhammer compressor had a pintle...the sound of it drove me nuts, you could feel it banging around back there too. That is just driving on the street and to construction sites, couldn't imagine towing an offroad trailer with it. KRR-CLUNK-KRR-CLUNK-KRR-CLUNK...all the way down the trail, no thanks.
I would go with the Lock N' Roll or a Tregg.
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PhulesAU
Explorer
Kermit said:
I'm also not sure I'd want the weight of the trailer, slapping me in the rear. even if it's only an 1" or so of travel. My Mack uses a locking bar to take up the slack in braking situations, but thats with a 30k lb pup trailer. The above mention set-ups pretty much eliminate the shock and / or momentum transfer.
The difference between towing and recovery is generally the accelaration component used in snatching a static object. Trailer balls may be rated to tow, say, 10,000 pounds, and may have a safety factor of 1.5, which would suggest a failure at around 15,000, but it is quite easy to exert more than this much force on a recovery point. A 5,000 pound vehicle accelerating at 3 feet per second per second (a fairly slow rate) would exert 15,000 pounds of force at the end of a snatch strap. When they do break, the ball becomes a projectile and the guy at the other end of the strap is in the target zone. For the same reason, D-rings should not be used to join two straps, etc. Heavy metal objects flying toward you at 20mph can be exciting.
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
Something doesn't add up here. In order to apply a 15k lbs load to the ball with a 5k lbs vehicle you'd need a 3G acceleration. A 3G accel would be 96.51 ft per second^2.
If the trailer ball only had a FS of 1.5 then it's mfg's liability lawyers should be screaming. That's not enough FS to allow for mfg variances. FS = 2 would be bare minimum and is std Engineering practice for most situations that do not involve lifting overhead.
If the trailer ball only had a FS of 1.5 then it's mfg's liability lawyers should be screaming. That's not enough FS to allow for mfg variances. FS = 2 would be bare minimum and is std Engineering practice for most situations that do not involve lifting overhead.
archebald23
New member
in line with this, when purchasing an acme hitch trailer ball mount, do you need to specify the grade strength you need? or is it automatically associated with the size?
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alosix
Expedition Leader
My M101 on the TJ hardly ever makes any noise with the pintle. The only time it makes any noise is if I managed to load the trailer with no tongue weight. Then its a nice clue to know I've screwed up before I get going too fast.
I'm using this:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_32384_32384
With a stock M101 lunette on it.
Also.. I've used that setup to recover once or twice. It seemed to work ok, but I rarely have it mounted without the trailer since it drags a bit coming off of things. There's also the fact that there's normally a coating of grease on it to keep it turning smooth and I don't want that on my straps.
Jason