Poll: how many of you know that driving in washes in AZ is illegal?
- Thread starter DesertRose
- Start date
MaddBaggins
Explorer
I always stay on the road unless I am walking(hiking), then I challenge myself with a little exploration and finding my way back. I have a real good internal compass. That comes in handy when I hunt.
Jonathan, after reading your posts in this thread I like you even more! It's comforting to know other people have similar views.
Jonathan, after reading your posts in this thread I like you even more! It's comforting to know other people have similar views.
calamaridog
Expedition Leader
How do you tell the difference between illegal off hwy trails made by drug runners, coyotes, and the Border Patrol vs. the ATV mafia and the Rock Buggy zealots?
1,000,000 people are about to cross into AZ in 2006 through your southern border. Many off them will be in cars, trucks, and vans. Many more will be on foot.
My buddy arrested 2 guys on ATV's carrying several hundred pounds of drugs across the border near Nacho. They weren't driving on trails either. The BP drives wherever they want.
The point I'm trying to make, as I'm sure you already know after picking up their trash, is that there is a more serious issue at work here. The border states are screwed. There is no end in site. We cannot pick up millions of tons of trash each year.
What will be done
1,000,000 people are about to cross into AZ in 2006 through your southern border. Many off them will be in cars, trucks, and vans. Many more will be on foot.
My buddy arrested 2 guys on ATV's carrying several hundred pounds of drugs across the border near Nacho. They weren't driving on trails either. The BP drives wherever they want.
The point I'm trying to make, as I'm sure you already know after picking up their trash, is that there is a more serious issue at work here. The border states are screwed. There is no end in site. We cannot pick up millions of tons of trash each year.
What will be done
DesertRose
Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
Yes, the points are certainly clear - there is a huge problem.
Which is why as recreational 4x4 owners and drivers, we can and should use our maps, which show legal roads - on FS and some BLM lands, they are marked with signs - and we should know the laws, such as the one in Pima County (there are others throughout the state) that indicates that driving up (not across) washes if it's not a road, is not legal.
There are good reasons for this: out in our neck of the woods, where a good portion of those 1 million people are walking across the desert north and where we get a lot of coyote and drug smuggler traffic, when we see a truck or ATV driving up a wash or cross country, we assume they are up to no good and we call Border Patrol and/or the Sheriff if they are trespassing on our property (which ATVs OFTEN do).
Also - this thread was started to alert people to land-use laws and to bring up some points about the ethics of driving (or thinking we have the right to drive) EVERYWHERE: it disturbs wild areas, and wild animals, and those of us who hunt are sick of ATVs and 4x4s driving everywhere, including places that are ostensibly roadless - and used to be great hunting until ATVs came onto the scene.
Since we live in Ground Zero Borderlandia and see migrants and smugglers nearly every day, it's fairly easy to tell the ATV bozos and pseudo-hunters from the real hunters from the smugglers. Real hunters walk. Pseudo-hunters on ATVs who drive around to "scout" (how silly!) can be spotted a mile away (hint: the deer spot them, too). And the other guys - smugglers - stand out so easy, just by their behavior (they don't wave and they drive really fast and they are usually Hispanic - but hey, i'm not racial profiling here!). We've tried to point this out to the Border Patrol kids who are out here, but they don't seem to get it....
Roseann
Which is why as recreational 4x4 owners and drivers, we can and should use our maps, which show legal roads - on FS and some BLM lands, they are marked with signs - and we should know the laws, such as the one in Pima County (there are others throughout the state) that indicates that driving up (not across) washes if it's not a road, is not legal.
There are good reasons for this: out in our neck of the woods, where a good portion of those 1 million people are walking across the desert north and where we get a lot of coyote and drug smuggler traffic, when we see a truck or ATV driving up a wash or cross country, we assume they are up to no good and we call Border Patrol and/or the Sheriff if they are trespassing on our property (which ATVs OFTEN do).
Also - this thread was started to alert people to land-use laws and to bring up some points about the ethics of driving (or thinking we have the right to drive) EVERYWHERE: it disturbs wild areas, and wild animals, and those of us who hunt are sick of ATVs and 4x4s driving everywhere, including places that are ostensibly roadless - and used to be great hunting until ATVs came onto the scene.
Since we live in Ground Zero Borderlandia and see migrants and smugglers nearly every day, it's fairly easy to tell the ATV bozos and pseudo-hunters from the real hunters from the smugglers. Real hunters walk. Pseudo-hunters on ATVs who drive around to "scout" (how silly!) can be spotted a mile away (hint: the deer spot them, too). And the other guys - smugglers - stand out so easy, just by their behavior (they don't wave and they drive really fast and they are usually Hispanic - but hey, i'm not racial profiling here!). We've tried to point this out to the Border Patrol kids who are out here, but they don't seem to get it....
Roseann
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calamaridog
Expedition Leader
Roseann,
I know it is easy for you to tell the difference :ylsmoke: but it may be hard for others to tell the difference who just see ruts and piles of trash.
It certainly behoves us all to educate the younger generations about staying on the legal trails and such. I can say that I have personally signed up a total of 10 "buddies" through the Blue Ribbon Coalition this year.
It is more important than ever that we dedicate more OHV areas and dedicated trail systems. There are not enough trails for the HUGE number of ATV's in peoples garages.
Most importantly, there is no enforcement. They can add 1,000 Border Patrol agent each year but they never add Park Rangers and BLM Officers.
I know it is easy for you to tell the difference :ylsmoke: but it may be hard for others to tell the difference who just see ruts and piles of trash.
It certainly behoves us all to educate the younger generations about staying on the legal trails and such. I can say that I have personally signed up a total of 10 "buddies" through the Blue Ribbon Coalition this year.
It is more important than ever that we dedicate more OHV areas and dedicated trail systems. There are not enough trails for the HUGE number of ATV's in peoples garages.
Most importantly, there is no enforcement. They can add 1,000 Border Patrol agent each year but they never add Park Rangers and BLM Officers.
fj803fe
New member
Jonathan Hanson said:
So true, so true.
I have faught with my own emotions several times regarding, off-road use, wildlife habitat, preservation, conservation, sustainable management, and on, and on, and on.
As a wildlife biologist by education, environmental consultant by proffession, avid off-road enthusiast (albeit limited to my cruisers
), hunter, backpacker, etc, etc, etc. I have not found the answer. Chew on this;
Interesting fact (at least in Colorado); approximately 93% of recreators in the State of Colorado do not go further than 300 ft. from their vehicle when in public parks and public lands. Do you? Think about it. I do hunting, hiking, working, etc. But when I am out with the fam, this is pretty much the case for me too.
Most of the high use recreation sites are fairly well damaged, but I know the FS has implemented new policies in the last 10 yrs to greatly reduce such impacts to "levels within acceptable change" by "upgrading" these recreating sites with public restrooms, gravelled parking areas, walkways to provide access to river systems to prevent riparian trespass-they have worked IMO, in a lot of situations. The BLM is trailing, but they always have, and the BLM was implemented not necessarily to manage but to provide "general public use lands" with very little if no restrictions. Comanagement of Forests and BLM lands has helped implement some good managements to the BLM lands as a result (e.g. calving period restrictions, other seasonal restrictions, implementation of signage for trail use, etc.)
Alternatively, I have seen some SERIOUSLY (what I would call seriously) damaged camping sites along the Colorado Trail at 13,000 ft with the nearest road 15 miles away! But management isn't as "active" in these areas, for obvious reasons.
Push to have roadless policies are still underway-while a nationwide push has somewhat faded, the local governments are picking up the ball, there is a meeting tomorrow night about making public lands in my county, and State for that matter, roadless. My opinion is both options are viable-but should be implemented in well defined 30 year management direction and 10 year management implementation plans-and not the piss-ant mangement plans that double as an EIS. Those, IMO, are worthless for making and maintaining managment decisions-A management plan and an EIS are two TOTALLY different animals alltogether-an niether can speak for the others needs.
Such interesting tid-bits can make one think, and piece together the actual "need" for environmental protection/management.
A lot of the initiatives are begun because of buzz-words marketed by interest groups (i.e. old-growth ( Do you know the "actual" definition of and how many forest types actually function as "old-growth?)).
As far as ATVs are concerned, yes I grow continually agrivated by them. But a backpacker alone grows ever more agrivated by my "tread lightly" off road use as well. Recreational conflict will never cease no matter the groups at hand.
And I agree about the "navigable waters" comment. Though an ephemeral wash is afforded somewhat less protections/restrictions for fills, many of them, even if apparently isolated, are given jurasdiction.
To the question about driving in washes, is it okay? Well, from an environmental stewardship stanpoint, no. By the letter of federal law (i.e. CWA), yes it is. Though local regs may restrict such activities.
But driving up a wash DOES do more damage than squashing veg, vertebrates, etc. Though the type of impact is dependant on the substrate at hand. tire depressions can alter flow velocities, scour, thalwags, and so on-its not only what you "see" that matters as an impact-its what you don't even know is occuring.
DesertRose
Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
Welcome, fj803fe!
Great post, really well-informed and right-on.
I think you'll find that Expedition Portal is populated largely by people like us, with a deep and abiding love of wild places and things (there are many hunters and serious backcountry outdoorspeople, too). There is a real community here of people who feel the conundrum of loving 4x4, vehicle-dependent expeditions and travel, while also understanding and loving and wanting to protect wild nature. Many of us work in the same field you do, or in a related field (I have been a professional conservationist for years, having run several non-profits; that's what I do right now, but this time an African organization).
I started this thread to get a conversation going about just the types of issues you raise in your post, above. Really it boils down to a choice we all make about how we run our trails, where we go, and how we understand what we do makes or does not make an impact on wild things and places.
When I--and a lot of other people here -- talk about conservation in this forum, we're not talking about conserving roads, we're talking about land conservation, and wildlife - that's why this particular discussion about washes came up, as down here in southern AZ we are seeing a huge decline in mule deer numbers and even Game and Fish is thinking it's ORV (quad) incursions into unroaded areas.
You can see the editorial Jonathan (my husband) wrote on the Expedition Portal Conservation page (http://www.expeditionportal.com/conservation.php) about the Roadless Rule and some interesting thoughts on why there are PLENTY of backroads in America (enough to circle the globe 15 times on Forest Service lands alone; folks who say there aren't enough roads maybe don't live within easy access, but we can't go building roads for every one who wants to drive within an hour of home, can we?). We don't feel a problem with the dichotomy that we're 4x4 enthusiasts AND we support the Roadless Rule; that we're serious environmentalists AND we're loyal Republicans; that we're hunters and gun owners AND we support many liberal causes.
That roadless meeting you attended in Colorado was partly organized by the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, of which Jonathan and I became founding members last year. You might look them up on the web.
So - welcome, and thanks for the great input!
Great post, really well-informed and right-on.
I think you'll find that Expedition Portal is populated largely by people like us, with a deep and abiding love of wild places and things (there are many hunters and serious backcountry outdoorspeople, too). There is a real community here of people who feel the conundrum of loving 4x4, vehicle-dependent expeditions and travel, while also understanding and loving and wanting to protect wild nature. Many of us work in the same field you do, or in a related field (I have been a professional conservationist for years, having run several non-profits; that's what I do right now, but this time an African organization).
I started this thread to get a conversation going about just the types of issues you raise in your post, above. Really it boils down to a choice we all make about how we run our trails, where we go, and how we understand what we do makes or does not make an impact on wild things and places.
When I--and a lot of other people here -- talk about conservation in this forum, we're not talking about conserving roads, we're talking about land conservation, and wildlife - that's why this particular discussion about washes came up, as down here in southern AZ we are seeing a huge decline in mule deer numbers and even Game and Fish is thinking it's ORV (quad) incursions into unroaded areas.
You can see the editorial Jonathan (my husband) wrote on the Expedition Portal Conservation page (http://www.expeditionportal.com/conservation.php) about the Roadless Rule and some interesting thoughts on why there are PLENTY of backroads in America (enough to circle the globe 15 times on Forest Service lands alone; folks who say there aren't enough roads maybe don't live within easy access, but we can't go building roads for every one who wants to drive within an hour of home, can we?). We don't feel a problem with the dichotomy that we're 4x4 enthusiasts AND we support the Roadless Rule; that we're serious environmentalists AND we're loyal Republicans; that we're hunters and gun owners AND we support many liberal causes.
That roadless meeting you attended in Colorado was partly organized by the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, of which Jonathan and I became founding members last year. You might look them up on the web.
So - welcome, and thanks for the great input!
An interesting thread. I have come to believe that the issues with driving in washes really comes down to numbers. A vehicle every day or two will really have very little impact to wildlife (assuming no loss of fluids and crushing of plants). Most traces of impact will be washed away with the next flow. In fact, I think hiking and driving in washes leaves less impact due to this. I am not talking about those with running water though, dry washes only.
The problem comes from too many numbers. This weekend I had to hike about 8 miles round trip to get to an area I was working in. The result due to the short days was I didn't have time to get the work done I needed to. I was very tempted to drive up a wash for access. Fortunately I did find another way to access this area on an established road. These sort of things color my view as I look at access/wash driving as part of my job and not just recreation. It is not only that I want to get somewhere, but that I have to get somewhere. If I can do it with a vehicle as a opposed to backpacking in a basecamp that saves me both time and money. Especially as my pack gets heavier throughout the day as I collect samples, 2-4 10llb rock samples gets heavy at the end of the day.
I have no answers, because I know that too many people anywhere tends to trash a place.
Ross
The problem comes from too many numbers. This weekend I had to hike about 8 miles round trip to get to an area I was working in. The result due to the short days was I didn't have time to get the work done I needed to. I was very tempted to drive up a wash for access. Fortunately I did find another way to access this area on an established road. These sort of things color my view as I look at access/wash driving as part of my job and not just recreation. It is not only that I want to get somewhere, but that I have to get somewhere. If I can do it with a vehicle as a opposed to backpacking in a basecamp that saves me both time and money. Especially as my pack gets heavier throughout the day as I collect samples, 2-4 10llb rock samples gets heavy at the end of the day.
I have no answers, because I know that too many people anywhere tends to trash a place.
Ross
Yes, I've driven washs for years
I've driving washes for years, (AZ) but rather then everyone blaming the idiots that trash stuff, check out the holier than thou ranchers. We were recently cited by F&G for riding a wash "cross country travel" Sec 17-454. This was not a virgin wash, other vehicals have been up it. Ranchers, I assume by the tire marks.
A rancher saw us and reported our presence...he rode around with the F&G guy all day looking for us ...his private police force. In the wash we saw where the rancher had Bulldozed water holes and built a coral. Cow crap was everywhere. Yet he had the gull to tell us our tires left imprints in the sand and was evironmentally insensative...with a smirk on his face. This was all on state land! We do not cross private land and obey "no tresspassing",& "Private property" signs.
We do not cross country (different then washes), mow down cactus or wreck the land. Washes are self cleaning by mother nature any rain over a quarter of an inch will rearrange every rock in a wash, not to mention uprooting trees and vegatation. Cattle trample saguaro seedlings and others.
We have spent many weeks Helping F&G build reventments for deer and game watering holes. We pick up trash the idiots leave and 98 % of the time spend our time on roads and trails. Our hobby is old mine archeolegy.
So instead of blaming the imature ATV people ( we also explore by Jeep) Start looking at the damage the hobby/rancher does. Check around and old ranchers house...junk cars, open land fills, ces pools whaaa!. They buy a few acres bordering state land, put a double wide on it and run cattle on state land...our land! Lets stop blaming each other before all back roads are shut down. We can be the checks and balance to make sure all state land users are good stewards of the enviornment. ATV damage is a red herring at best. A
I've driving washes for years, (AZ) but rather then everyone blaming the idiots that trash stuff, check out the holier than thou ranchers. We were recently cited by F&G for riding a wash "cross country travel" Sec 17-454. This was not a virgin wash, other vehicals have been up it. Ranchers, I assume by the tire marks.
A rancher saw us and reported our presence...he rode around with the F&G guy all day looking for us ...his private police force. In the wash we saw where the rancher had Bulldozed water holes and built a coral. Cow crap was everywhere. Yet he had the gull to tell us our tires left imprints in the sand and was evironmentally insensative...with a smirk on his face. This was all on state land! We do not cross private land and obey "no tresspassing",& "Private property" signs.
We do not cross country (different then washes), mow down cactus or wreck the land. Washes are self cleaning by mother nature any rain over a quarter of an inch will rearrange every rock in a wash, not to mention uprooting trees and vegatation. Cattle trample saguaro seedlings and others.
We have spent many weeks Helping F&G build reventments for deer and game watering holes. We pick up trash the idiots leave and 98 % of the time spend our time on roads and trails. Our hobby is old mine archeolegy.
So instead of blaming the imature ATV people ( we also explore by Jeep) Start looking at the damage the hobby/rancher does. Check around and old ranchers house...junk cars, open land fills, ces pools whaaa!. They buy a few acres bordering state land, put a double wide on it and run cattle on state land...our land! Lets stop blaming each other before all back roads are shut down. We can be the checks and balance to make sure all state land users are good stewards of the enviornment. ATV damage is a red herring at best. A