Poll: how many of you know that driving in washes in AZ is illegal?

[Scott Brady]

Sorry, I don't really give two ********** about the environment - never been very politically correct..

Hey Jeff, at least your honest :shakin:

Actually, it is quite likely that wash running is not illegal in your area (think Canyon del Muerto). That is a county regulation. There are also many washes that are also clasified as roads (Box Canyon Road for example).

IMO, it is the raparian areas that demand our greatest respect, closed or not.

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

So . . . I am a fiscally conservative, hawkish-on-national-defense hunter and serial gun owner who believes welfare never raised the self-esteem of a single individual. But if I care about the environment, I'm "PC"?

That points out possibly the biggest problem facing the conservation community today: the concept that "environmentalists" are all either dreadlocked vegans or self-indulgent, meddling yuppies. Those on the far right who have a vested interest in exploiting public land for personal profit--or selfish recreational purposes--just love to push those stereotypes. My wife and I belong to an organization called Republicans for Environmental Protection. Why does such an organization have to exist? Because in our current, nasty, religionized political climate we're required to cleave completely to one party line or the other. It's environmentalism OR economic prosperity, militarism OR pacifism, free market OR protectionism. There is no nuance any more. No one has to think. I, for one, refuse to be a lemming.

I will never stop defending the last beautiful landscapes with which this country is blessed. I believe there is room and a place for everyone in the wild: hikers, 4x4 owners, motorhome retirees. I refuse to accept the idea that all wild lands left in the world are eventually doomed to be gobbled up by development. The world's population growth appears to be leveling off much sooner than anyone had hoped; with luck we'll stabilize our species at some sustainable number that will leave room for plenty of wilderness.

(Chuck, how was that for a rant?)

 

[BajaTaco]

(Chuck, how was that for a rant?)

I don't know about Chuck, but I thought it was EXCELLENT :ylsmoke:

 

[freightdog]

Just figured I could fire you all up! :bowdown:
:beer:

 

[Ursidae69]

So . . . I am a fiscally conservative, hawkish-on-national-defense hunter and serial gun owner who believes welfare never raised the self-esteem of a single individual. But if I care about the environment, I'm "PC"?

That points out possibly the biggest problem facing the conservation community today: the concept that "environmentalists" are all either dreadlocked vegans or self-indulgent, meddling yuppies. Those on the far right who have a vested interest in exploiting public land for personal profit--or selfish recreational purposes--just love to push those stereotypes. My wife and I belong to an organization called Republicans for Environmental Protection. Why does such an organization have to exist? Because in our current, nasty, religionized political climate we're required to cleave completely to one party line or the other. It's environmentalism OR economic prosperity, militarism OR pacifism, free market OR protectionism. There is no nuance any more. No one has to think. I, for one, refuse to be a lemming.

I will never stop defending the last beautiful landscapes with which this country is blessed. I believe there is room and a place for everyone in the wild: hikers, 4x4 owners, motorhome retirees. I refuse to accept the idea that all wild lands left in the world are eventually doomed to be gobbled up by development. The world's population growth appears to be leveling off much sooner than anyone had hoped; with luck we'll stabilize our species at some sustainable number that will leave room for plenty of wilderness.

(Chuck, how was that for a rant?)

Not bad, you need to froth at the mouth more though.

I'm all for compromises, but it's hard to reach compromises with the extreme on both sides pushing agendas. Where did you read that the world's growth is leveling off? I think we are still in the midst of the climb on the logistic growth curve myself. Maybe here in the US it has leveled off a little, but the rest of the world?

 

[Scott Brady]

First world countries have leveled off, or are in decline (for the most part). Since first world is the biggest consumers, that is a good start IMO.

In fact, it would be interesting to know how many on this forum have children, or greater than two. I have no kids, my sister only has one. The next generation (only my nephew) will have displaced four from my generation. 75% reduction in Brady's...

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Declining fertility rates world wide caused the UN to revise its long-term world population estimates downward significantly. Their medium projection for 2050 is now 9.3 billion, way below estimates of even a decade ago. And there are signs the actual number might turn out lower than that.

Education of women in third-world countries is considered by many the single most important factor in reducing birth rates. The more educated a woman is, the fewer children she has.

The big problem, of course, is that most growth is still happening in countries that can least afford it. On the other hand, as Jared Diamond points out, a single birth in the first world weighs far heavier on the planet's resources than one in the third world.

Roseann and I have no children. On the other hand, one of my brothers seems to be doing his best to make up for that . . .

 

[DesertRose]

Yes - "Just say 'NO, dude!'"

Interesting course this thread has taken.

All I wanted to do was get some discussion going about the consequences of driving in washes (not about world birth rates!). For me, I don't get all hot and bothered about driving over plants or even a squished vertebrate or two....in the long run, what really really really pisses me off are the people who will drive into an area that has no roads - whether it's up a wash or cross-country, same thing to me, because I do give two ********** for the environment, actually probably more like three. And while I think people belong in the environment and I support sustainable resource-based livelihoods like ranching and traditional fishing and small-scale farming, I don't think motor vehicles belong everywhere. Once again: use the quads God gave you!

Ack! I'm ranting! I'm ranting - :ar15: - there, that felt better. Never give a pissed off woman with elevated hormone levels an AR15.

 

[Ursidae69]

Is the wash (aka the Gila River) legal to drive up when it is flowing?

 

[Scott Brady]

I would say no, and just a bad idea in general. I ended up doing that once and regret it (for several reasons). We were driving to a ford point.

 

[BajaTaco]

... I was up on a ridgeline after daybreak waiting quietly under a tree when a fat guy on a quad comes up my ridgeline.

Although I think it sucks too, one thing to bear in mind is that the regulations for many public land areas allow an ATV to be driven across roadless, cross-country land when it is being used to pick up legally killed big game. I know this is the case for a lot of the forest land and state trust lands in Arizona. This can be really frustrating and I'm not so sure the logic of this policy is all that sound. In some cases I think it might be okay, but in a lot of cases I can see where it just allows way too much leverage for someone to be careless, ignorant, and abuse the priveledge.

 

[Ursidae69]

I would say no, and just a bad idea in general. I ended up doing that once and regret it (for several reasons). We were driving to a ford point.

I was just baiting you a little Scott because of your drive up the Rio. It is a cool video.

Although I think it sucks too, one thing to bear in mind is that the regulations for many public land areas allow an ATV to be driven across roadless, cross-country land when it is being used to pick up legally killed big game. I know this is the case for a lot of the forest land and state trust lands in Arizona. This can be really frustrating and I'm not so sure the logic of this policy is all that sound. In some cases I think it might be okay, but in a lot of cases I can see where it just allows way too much leverage for someone to be careless, ignorant, and abuse the priveledge.

I hadn't thought about that and you are right, in many places using an ATV or truck off-road for game retrieval is allowed. Not what this guy was doing in my case unless he was using a very loose interpretation of that rule. I think quartering it and getting it to the nearest road with your God-given quads would be the best option.

 

[awalter]

My wife and I belong to an organization called Republicans for Environmental Protection. Why does such an organization have to exist? Because in our current, nasty, religionized political climate we're required to cleave completely to one party line or the other. It's environmentalism OR economic prosperity, militarism OR pacifism, free market OR protectionism. There is no nuance any more. No one has to think. I, for one, refuse to be a lemming.

Why must one be affiliated with any of the political parties? I for one havn't been a registered Rep, Dem, Lib or what ever for over 25 years. Party affiliation is an escape & reduces your independence. I also have never missed casting my vote. :gunt:

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Good point by Awalter. I stay registered mostly to vote in primaries. However, I also find that when lobbying (i.e. bullying, threatening, etc.) Republican congressmen and senators about environmental issues, it really helps if you're registered in the party.

Wow, this did get off track, didn't it? So to speak. But small issues reflect larger philosophical conundrums.

 

[DesertRose]

Agreed! This got way off track, but I have to say I think registering for a party is not giving up independence: it's ensuring that I don't let other people choose who I have to vote for (ie - primaries). I also think the best way to change things you don't like is not to avoid them but to join 'em and infiltrate - change from the inside. That's why I campaign for and volunteer for representatives I like. Did that for one of our best current reps and low and behold, at parties now he asks my opinion on environmental issues (and once, he asked about my thoughts on gun control from a woman's perspective). THAT'S a chance to make a difference and that's power to the people. :elkgrin: