Practical Winch Line Handling Question

[Bongo Boy]

Okay, forget the practical part--but an interesting one to me, anyway.

Suppose your rig is equipped with an industrial-type winch and a very long synthetic rope--say well over 250' long. Suppose you think you need all the tug that winch can put out, and so you want to pull from layer 1 or 2.

The problem is that you have to pull off nearly 150 ft or more of synthetic rope to get down to layer 2, but you can't or don't want to have the winch that far from the object you're hooking to.

How do you solve this problem while preserving the integrity of your winch line--and obviously without putting a permanent knot in it--and without using one or more snatch blocks. Is there a proper method or device that can be used to safely and non-destructively pull from mid-line?

I like to come up with this crap to keep minds sharp.

 

[Scott Brady]

Okay, forget the practical part--but an interesting one to me, anyway

The best solution is to just pull the working length you need and run a single pull block. Being that there is more rope on the winch, the line speed will be fast enough to work with, but you have also doubled (minus any parasitic loss) the existing pulling power on even the outer layer

 

[outsidr]

You can also daisy chain the synthetic line and put a shackle /stick on the last loop to hold it in place starting at the anchor point. You will not get the 2:1 ratio and mechanical advantage that Scott mentioned but you will take out the slack and finish the pull faster. It really just depends on the situation and the ground you are on and how easy it would be to reset the chain when the winch reached it.

A daisy chain is created by twisting the winchline one time and pulling the line through the circle making a loop, then repeating until you have taken the slack out of the line.

Check this out its great http://www.animatedknots.com/chains...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com :26_7_2:

It is worth mentioning that in the above illustration you would simply hook the last loop to the winch line with a shackle or put a stick in it and use tension to snug it up. When you pull it out the knot unravels and you winch through the remaining slack! (dont pull the standing line through the last loop, it makes a full on knot)

 

[Fifthpro]

Well, I enjoy the problem solving aspect of the question posed. Of course it left me with a few questions......250' of line? What vehicle runs around with that? But you asked first......

The technique used will vary according to the situation and pull requirement....I agree with both of the previous posts/answers.
1. If the pull requires you to use then full capacity of your winch, you should use a snatch block at you anchor point and perform a double line pull. Still to much line...do a triple line pull.
2. You restricted the use of snatch blocks....(why would you do that unless you do not have one?) Then use a different anchor point at the proper location required. Natural or man-made (re-position a vehicle or use a Pull Pal)
3. Daisy Chain the line (as already stated) but this will also need to be re-rigged at a certain point.

 

[pevrs114]

This is a mere mental exercise, so please don't flame me too hard.

There is equipment for rock climbing/rappelling that has a cam that can attach to a rope, making a secure mounting point for carabiners, etc. It cams onto the rope anywhere, so you could use it to shorten a section of line.

Does anything like this exist that is rated for or would attach to synthetic or steel winch cable?

ETA - found what I was looking for, commonly called a Gibbs grab, it looks like this-

 

[Hunter]

This is a mere mental exercise, so please don't flame me too hard.

There is equipment for rock climbing/rappelling that has a cam that can attach to a rope, making a secure mounting point for carabiners, etc. It cams onto the rope anywhere, so you could use it to shorten a section of line.

Does anything like this exist that is rated for or would attach to synthetic or steel winch cable?

ETA - found what I was looking for, commonly called a Gibbs grab, it looks like this-

That would be sweet set up but I just dont know if they make anything that can handle a 9,000 pound pull. I am pretty sure the cable couldnt.

My crack at this is to make it more practical. Haveing a long winch line is pretty critical, most important, when wheeling by your self. Otherwise, it is garunteed that you are stuck in the sand and the closest tree is 126 feet away and you got a 125 foot of line.....

But operating with that much is risky, Unless you are doing non-stop pulls a cross a snowfeild, I'd cut in half and rig the other line with the proper ends so it can become a exstension. if you need to go far you got it, but considering whincing needs are short pulls and with in 50 feet, your winch will be happeir and the cable will love you. (Keep in mind the stress put on the lower wraps eveytime you use it.)


Ok, I know this wasnt in the rules, I just couldnt help it as this most practical set up.

Plus as a bonus, if you needed to do as loooong pull to assist the 4x4, you can hand it to your buddy and he can use his winch to get across so you dont have to around and pull him.

 

[michaelgroves]

I'm with Hunter. Shorter ropes, properly spliced with thimbles, and shackled together when extensions are needed. And snatch blocks in case you need the 2:1 advantage (plus the lower drum levels).

I certainly wouldn't put any kind of knots into a winch-line under load - a knot will typically reduce the breaking strain of the line by 50%! (Whereas splicing typically reduces the breaking strain by about 10%).

The reason a knot weakens a rope so badly is that it puts a part of the rope under compression, which it's not designed for. I would guess that would be be the same snag with any devices such as the Gibbs Grab that pevrs mentioned.

Michael...

 

[Bongo Boy]

Okay. In spite of the somewhat goofy scenario and artificial constraints, you've all helped me a lot. I guess I could have asked 'how much rope should I buy for my winch', but to me that's awfully close to the popular style of question: "what's the best winch rope length".

So, this all comes about from my recent acquisition of a winch having a 290' capacity--not a Pullmaster dock winch, but a tow truck unit just the same. It's actually not any bigger than your average 4x4 winch. In any case, I wanted to use some of that capacity, but not too much of it.

One thing I suppose I could do is to fabricate a false flange for the drum, placing this flange on the drum about 2/3 of the way from one end, effectively shortening the drum capacity by that much. The unused 1/3 of the drum could then be used as a capstan winch--for all the times you need one of those. I think this would work--the clearance between the fairlead rollers is enough to allow the winch line thimble to pass through, and if the line was only wound to layer 3, there would be enough room on the spool to secure it with a velcro strap to allow free turning without snagging when the capstan was in use. Why? Hell, I don't know--why do people put lettuce on sandwiches?

Full drum capacities, in feet, by spool layer are:

1: 24
2: 53
3: 87
4: 126

 

[ntsqd]

A common mod to the 8247 winch drums is to widen them. Partly for more line capacity, partly to be on a lower wrap at any given pull distance.
Narrowing a drum seems counter-productive unless that's what it takes to physically make it fit.
I'm with others, cut off the likely excess and make an extension out of it. Then you'd have both the long length and the low wraps.

 

[Bongo Boy]

Okay, that's what I'll do. It's a 10" wide drum, 4" diameter. The overall width of the winch is 24", so it's not much different than Mile Marker or a lot of other winch models. About 150' for the first 3 layers, or just the first 2 layers for 75'.

 

[BiG BoB]

First of all, I've never used one of these for winching a vehicle...

In my line of work, we use winches spooled with around 1100m of wire rope, with conductors in the center.

We then run survey tools down drill holes, and occasionally one will get "stuck"

The winch only really has a pull capacity of around 200kg, whilst the weakest point of the line is rated to around 1500kg (where it terminates and attaches to the survey tool) so to give it a good solid pull we use a device that I know as a cable T.

Its basically 2 pieces of steel with a V machined out of each and a line of bolt holes either side, so that when one of these is placed either side of the wireline and bolted up, it sandwiches the wireline without damaging it or the conductors inside.

We have holes to attach shackles to, and then lift with a forklift, EWP, Hiab crane, or anything else. The T name comes from its shape, with the top being wider than the bottom, where the shackle holes are.

Sean

 

[Fifthpro]

This is a mere mental exercise, so please don't flame me too hard.

There is equipment for rock climbing/rappelling that has a cam that can attach to a rope, making a secure mounting point for carabiners, etc. It cams onto the rope anywhere, so you could use it to shorten a section of line.

Does anything like this exist that is rated for or would attach to synthetic or steel winch cable?

ETA - found what I was looking for, commonly called a Gibbs grab, it looks like this-

Funny you brought that up........while it may not be popular with the general population of folks, there are in fact a number of climbing items that have been put into service for recovery operations. Of course this comes with a risk if done improperly, and the folks who do this have everything rated to a certain load limit and a firm understanding of the equipment and the limitations. Like I said some will scoff at the ideal and others will find it acceptable in certain conditions.

At the end of the day, I personally have tested and used certain items from the climbing world incorporated into recovery operations. One thing most will agree with is innovation and this falls into that realm. Of course there is a huge safety warning that accompanies all aspects of recovery.

 

[pevrs114]

You know, this thread has made me think quite a bit. I've got some background in rope work, not a whole lot, but enough to be exposed to it. I've taken a couple of technical rope rescue classes through the volunteer fire department, and a lot of the principles are similar to vehicle recovery. I would suppose that as long as the equipment that you're using is rated for the weight and type of pull (dynamic vs static, etc) then many of the methods for anchoring, multiple anchor adapters, change of pull direction, etc would probably be applicable.

The technique I'd like to figure out the most is combining multiple anchors, none of which by themselves could support the weight, but when combined are capable. This is a popular technique for rope rescue and mountaineering, I'm sure it would work. Also, some of the ways to anchor using nylon webbing, rope, stakes, etc could definitely cross over.

Makes you wonder!

 

[Fifthpro]

You know, this thread has made me think quite a bit. I've got some background in rope work, not a whole lot, but enough to be exposed to it. I've taken a couple of technical rope rescue classes through the volunteer fire department, and a lot of the principles are similar to vehicle recovery. I would suppose that as long as the equipment that you're using is rated for the weight and type of pull (dynamic vs static, etc) then many of the methods for anchoring, multiple anchor adapters, change of pull direction, etc would probably be applicable.

The technique I'd like to figure out the most is combining multiple anchors, none of which by themselves could support the weight, but when combined are capable. This is a popular technique for rope rescue and mountaineering, I'm sure it would work. Also, some of the ways to anchor using nylon webbing, rope, stakes, etc could definitely cross over.

Makes you wonder!

Aaaaah.....I have been waiting to get stoned by the non-believers and naysayers then low and behold there are others. Can you imagine what the crowds reaction was when the first guy drove up to the local wheeling area and had synthetic line on his winch.

 

[ntsqd]

I've been thinking for a couple days that, though not exactly what they're intended to do, that these Crosby Wedge Sockets might work in this application. Took me until now to find them online.