Pre-Emission Full-sized Trucks

[Clutch]

Good call.. I do everything myself so it didn't even occur to me shop labour. I think Cummins injector swap is 4hrs or so shop time by the book. I'm honestly not entirely sure how long "on average" injectors can last.. OEM vs. ____ brand can have a difference.. but I would say well past 100k and closer to if not exceeding 200k is to be expected.

It's true there are a few things on a diesel engine that are significantly more expensive than a car (comparing individual parts vehicle-to-vehicle), but for cars the options for ultra cheap replacement parts are endless and in comes the old adage of do you buy the right quality part the first time or keep replacing it with multiple much cheaper parts that are of 'disposable' quality. The reason diesel parts are more expensive is (in my opinion) the minimum buy-in for aftermarket parts is of much higher quality on average than the car equivalent.. these engines are meant to be strong reliable workhorses and not just to get the broke college kid's Cavalier back on the road for roadtrip time. On top of that, you have injection pump, injectors, turbo, and maybe waterpump as things that "can" go wrong on a diesel.. but not necessarily need to be replaced after 100k, 200k, 300k or even higher. Of course it's good practice after a certain time period but it's not necessarily required. A car has timing belts every 100k (and the heinous labour costs shop charge to replace), water pump at the same time usually, ignition coils, spark plugs, plug wires, oil every 5,000k, CV joints and boots.. so many things that will likely require attention sooner than a diesel, not to mention more difficulty and time consuming to replace (re: higher labour cost).

I'm obviously biased towards diesels, but I've always been a bit turned off by the "diesel vs gasser maintenance cost" discussions that takes place online, which are usually unfavouring towards the diesel as opined from a gasser enthusiasts.. my somewhat inexperienced opinion is that in the end, like you say about the mileage, the maintenance cost can potentially all be a wash as well.. all depending on brand, how you the user maintains it, how it was maintained before you, how you abuse it, etc.

Sorry Dalko for derailing the thread here.. I just wanted to step in and defend The Diesels' honour!

Yeah the gas vs. diesel arguments are always the same. Though I was comparing apples to apples, gas 3/4 ton to diesel 3/4 ton... albeit...new gasser vs. an out of warranty diesel...who is talking about clapped out Cavilers?

All of our trucks were gas except the Mack Tri-Axle...all the earth moving equipment was diesel...granted I haven't been in the construction business for over 20 years...just seems crazy that the kids now-a-days need 1000 ft lbs of torque to yank a couple sleds around....and I am over here "like" think I can make that 180 ft lbs, a 4 banger Tacoma has... work.

See that a lot here, jacked up to the sky diesel with stacks, with two 500 lbs sleds carried above the bed rails...seems like a lot of weight up awfully high.

I dunno, I don't get all of that...call me old skool!

 

[Clutch]

Ok, won't clutter your thread with sidebar talk. I went gas for my purposes, but luckily, we live where we've got choices. Like I said above, my friend had a 5.9. That thing was a beast. He put on 70k miles and I don't recall him having any issues. Range was impressive as well. Although a couple of gas cans in the 4Runner will get you where you need to go.
_
One negative for me on that 2500 was the ride was a bit harsh. Especially since my friend hauled air 99% of the time (like me), it rode a bit choppy. The newer HD trucks seem to ride better to me. Hopefully that's not an issue for you, especially coming from the plush riding 4Runner.

Most of my dirt bike riding buddies who went the diesel route, got tired of fussing and throwing money at them, went back to gas. Good friend just picked up a brand new Ram 5.7 1500...getting 18-20 mpg hwy empty...12-15 pulling his toyhauler. Paid like $25K for it too!

Seems like the new 1/2 tons are like the 3/4 tons of the 60's & 70's that I grew up with...but with more power and better fuel economy.

The new HD trucks sure do ride nice...makes that old iron seem barbaric.

 

[Dalko43]

...just seems crazy that the kids now-a-days need 1000 ft lbs of torque to yank a couple sleds around....and I am over here, "like" think I can make that 180 ft lbs, a 4 banger Tacoma has work.

See that a lot here, jacked up to the sky diesel with stacks, with two 500 lbs sleds carried above the bed rails...seems like a lot of weight up awfully high.

I dunno, I don't get all of that...call me old skool!

True enough. Within the diesel community there seems to be a tuner crowd who are into huge lifts, big tires, and smoke-belching stacks all to tow no more than a few hundred lbs, if that. That whole fad seems to be a lot more about show than any sort of functionality or purpose, and I just can't relate to it.

Conversely, there seems to be a huge craze within the overlanding/offroad community to go take a light/medium duty gasoline platform like a Jeep Rubicon or 4runner and throw huge tires, heavy armor, roof rack, RTT, and everything out of the ARB or AEV catalog at it. When it's all said and done, you've got a vehicle at or just about over GVWR and you're lucky to get 14-16 mpg highway...it's no wonder fuel cans are so prevalent in the North American overlanding community.

My humble opinion is that while gasoline rigs can suffice as generalist, all-purpose DD and travel rigs, diesel trucks, even the big 3/4 ton examples, make a lot more sense as the expected cargo weights and travel distances increase.

 

[Clutch]

True enough. Within the diesel community there seems to be a tuner crowd who are into huge lifts, big tires, and smoke-belching stacks all to tow no more than a few hundred lbs, if that. That whole fad seems to be a lot more about show than any sort of functionality or purpose, and I just can't relate to it.

Conversely, there seems to be a huge craze within the overlanding/offroad community to go take a light/medium duty gasoline platform like a Jeep Rubicon or 4runner and throw huge tires, heavy armor, roof rack, RTT, and everything out of the ARB or AEV catalog at it. When it's all said and done, you've got a vehicle at or just about over GVWR and you're lucky to get 14-16 mpg highway...it's no wonder fuel cans are so prevalent in the North American overlanding community.

My humble opinion is that while gasoline rigs can suffice as generalist, all-purpose DD and travel rigs, diesel trucks, even the big 3/4 ton examples, make a lot more sense as the expected cargo weights and travel distances increase.

No kidding! I don't get either! It is like they want to bolt-on every gee-gaw, and don't even care about being over-loaded and safety. I try to go as light as possible with mine, well under payload and towing capacity...the gas mileage sure could be better though. It is what it is.

I keep on looking at FWC's and Alaskan Campers (for retirement)...3/4-1 ton diesel kinda makes sense. Still not crazy about the mpg's. All and all...there really isn't anything on the market that has me interested. Basically want 2000-2500 lbs. pay load, 30 mpg, with a manual trans. Colorado diesel kinda comes close, but not available in the regular cab or extra cab, no manual trans, but will get 30 mpg easy. The DCSB with a FWC Swift I think they are calling it, would work...still not crazy about DCSB...could turn the rear seat into a storage area.

The Nissan XD is coming out with a regular cab, guessing the payload will be close to 3000 lbs, torque looks to be good without being over kill...the mpg's aren't looking so hot though.

F150 with the HD package is a bit closer, payload is decent, low 20's mpg is livable...but like the other 2 no manual trans.

I basically want a diesel HiLux...has everything I want but being available in the US.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

On a recent northern BC/Yukon/Alaska roadtrip my 24V 5.9L Cummins was logging 11.3-11.7 L/100km (20-21 mpg) going up and down hills (35" MT's, probably 1500lbs in back of cab and bed including canopy), maintaining 100-120km/hr and always >15psi boost... I can't begin to imagine what a gasser's mileage would have been, taking into account it would need to downshift and uprev instead the Cummins just boosting more. Another thing to consider about diesels, especially a stick shift one (although an automatic with lockout would do this in higher gears) is that anytime the engine is braking such as down a hill and in gear, zero diesel is being consumed. I can't speak for all gasser engines but I would imagine most are still injecting some fuel on engine braking deceleration. Sometimes my truck gets noticeably better mileage on medium-hilly drives alternating between 15psi and 0psi vs. long flat drives at a constant 5psi boost.

Boost burns fuel too. Something has to mix with that extra air.

 

[tgreening]

I can't speak for Chevy or dodge, but for Ford I've had every diesel since the 7.3 and all the newer (not counting old) gas modulers.

If you pull, pull heavy, pull a lot, and or use the diesel to make money they're useful. For schlepping around pulling any sort of "overland" trailer, or hauling a slide in/flatbed camper they don't really make that much sense for the average person.

Any of the older diesels like the dodge 5.9 or Ford 7.3 seem to demand a premium bordering on stupid, and the fuel mileage savings really don't pan out. I've run all those numbers as well and for the average Joe he will not own his vehicle long enough, to drive it far enough, for those yearly savings to pan out in the end, considering the increased buy-in and increased maintenance costs.

Same for the longevity arguement. The modern Ford gas engines for example will far outlast the average persons average length of ownership or miles driven.

Any Ford V8 is more than capable of handling any off-road load you're likely to toss at it, and the 6.8/6.2 V8s will handle a pretty size able working load if need be. They're durable, cheap to fix, long lasting, and fuel availability is never an issue as long as you operate someplace that knows what an internal combustion engine is.

I loved my tuned 6.4, that was either hauling a load for my business, or more likely hauling my 17k pound camper every day, all summer long. There is no way I'd own it for any lesser task.

There is no way I'll pay the stupid premium people want for the apparently gold plated 5.9/7.3 that came in the older Dodges/Fords respectively. Not when a perfectly suitable gas version exists that in the long run won't cost me more anyway

 

[frojoe]

Boost burns fuel too. Something has to mix with that extra air.

That goes without saying. I mean that in my mind is a better possibility for fuel economy maintaining or slightly fluctuating the rpm and having the boost be the large-change variable, instead of a gasser engine constantly up/downshifting and the resulting massive changes in rpm.

 

[p nut]

...There's no question though, Toyota's 4runner and Landcruiser platforms offer a certain level of comfort that a Ram 2500 just isn't going to have. Lol, trust me when I say there will be things about my 4runner that I'll miss once it's gone. If there is any kool aid that I'm guilty of drinking, it's the Toyota kool aid. They make very good trucks, but they don't offer anything that really fits my needs (at least not in the US).

Hear you there. I love all of my Toyota trucks I've owned. Zero problems with them. But when I started having kids, the Tacoma/4Runners became too small and I just couldn't stomach the gas guzzling Tundra/LC's and their mediocre range (like you, I'm not a fan of gas cans). Plus, things have just gotten very very bland over the last several years. Even for Toyota. They have(had) a good thing going, and now it's like they've just flat out stopped funding the R&D dept. i.e. I was not very impressed with the new Tacoma's. After 10+ years, that's what they came up with?
_
One bad thing for you is, like the poster above mentioned, it seems like you're going to be paying a handsome amount for a 10 year old truck. It's a little crazy how much they're getting for these, but I guess same could be said for Tacoma's and 4Runners. Then you look at the price of a brand new (albeit gas) Ram, and.....I don't know. Hope you find a good deal.

Most of my dirt bike riding buddies who went the diesel route, got tired of fussing and throwing money at them, went back to gas. Good friend just picked up a brand new Ram 5.7 1500...getting 18-20 mpg hwy empty...12-15 pulling his toyhauler. Paid like $25K for it too!

Seems like the new 1/2 tons are like the 3/4 tons of the 60's & 70's that I grew up with...but with more power and better fuel economy.

The new HD trucks sure do ride nice...makes that old iron seem barbaric.

Those Hemi's also sound great. Another friend had an older 5.7L Hemi. Makes my ecoboost sound like a Prius!

 

[Clutch]

They have(had) a good thing going, and now it's like they've just flat out stopped funding the R&D dept. i.e. I was not very impressed with the new Tacoma's. After 10+ years, that's what they came up with?

Seems like their trucks are an after thought...and all the R&D goes to the hybrids and fuel cells. They have great diesels that get decent fuel economy, but they flat out refuse to sell them here. Have about given up on the new Toyotas...the only one that kinda peaks my interest is the SR, but not really. Can't seem to spend money on something I only "kinda" like.

Really need to get over my manual trans fetish, break down and buy a gaaawd damn F150.

Those Hemi's also sound great. Another friend had an older 5.7L Hemi. Makes my ecoboost sound like a Prius!

He is super happy with...really a little hotrod. It is a RCSB, why it was so cheap...no one wants those. Pulls his 18' toyhauler like it isn't even back there. He used to be a diesel fanboy...had a F250 a 7.3, then a Dodge with the 5.9...he was always fussing with them, then the tranny took a crap on the Daaagde at only 70K. He also had a couple VW TDi Sportwagons...the last one, at only 20K miles gave them a warning code something along the lines "don't continue to drive or it will cause damage, tow to dealer"(really!!, the gaaaawd damn thing only has 20K it!) ...annnd he was done with diesels after that...took it to the dealer and traded it in on a gasser.

 

[Dalko43]

There is no way I'll pay the stupid premium people want for the apparently gold plated 5.9/7.3 that came in the older Dodges/Fords respectively. Not when a perfectly suitable gas version exists that in the long run won't cost me more anyway

The older diesels definitely seem to yield a significant fuel savings in the long run. They key part is that it will take a few years for the savings in fuel to make up for the higher used price. And yes, I do agree that some of the used 5.9L, LBZ and Ford diesels are commanding way too high of a price right now. I see some of the more heavily used ones going for $18K-$23K which makes sense, after all diesels generally do depreciate slower than gasoline engines. But some of the more "pristine" ones going for $34k-$40k is ridiculous...at that price I might as well go buy a newer 6.7L Cummins or Duramax and deal with the emissions crap.

I basically want a diesel HiLux...has everything I want but being available in the US.

Hear you there. I love all of my Toyota trucks I've owned. Zero problems with them. But when I started having kids, the Tacoma/4Runners became too small and I just couldn't stomach the gas guzzling Tundra/LC's and their mediocre range (like you, I'm not a fan of gas cans). Plus, things have just gotten very very bland over the last several years. Even for Toyota. They have(had) a good thing going, and now it's like they've just flat out stopped funding the R&D dept. i.e. I was not very impressed with the new Tacoma's. After 10+ years, that's what they came up with?

I agree with both of you on the state of Toyota's vehicles in the US. I'll be frank in saying I just don't get what all of the hype is in regards to the "new" Tacoma they came out with. 3.5L atkinson engine (which really doesn't seem like a torquey truck engine IMHO), still using drum brakes, c-channel frame (the Hilux, Landcruiser, and 4runner and pretty much every domestic full-sized all use boxed frames for a reason), and no small diesel engine options.

If Toyota would've just brought over their global Hilux platform (like Ford is planning on doing with the Ranger) and plopped an emissions compliant Duramax or Cummins inline 4 turbo diesel in it, the would've made a killing. Instead, they make a few tweaks to a 10 year old, North American-based pickup platform, call it a "new" generation and all the Toyota fans lose their minds....lol, makes no sense in my book.

And this is coming from a Toyota diehard...if Toyota were to bring over the LandCruiser 70 series (the real Landcruiser) and put something like the new Cummins V8 in it, I'd readily hand over my money.

One bad thing for you is, like the poster above mentioned, it seems like you're going to be paying a handsome amount for a 10 year old truck. It's a little crazy how much they're getting for these, but I guess same could be said for Tacoma's and 4Runners. Then you look at the price of a brand new (albeit gas) Ram, and.....I don't know. Hope you find a good deal.

Yeah, I agree with you on the pricing. I'm hoping to wait that out a bit and see if the next recession brings the used prices down a bit. Otherwise, at the prices sellers are asking for, I'm very tempted just to bypass these pre-emission generations and go get a newer diesel and figure out something with the emissions crap.

 

[adventr]

The Pro's I see with the LBZ Chevy: Stout and reliable Allison transmission and optional manual; great horsepower/torque figures in stock form (360HP, 650lb-ft); decent mpg and the Duramax is somewhat lighter (at ~800-900lbs) than comparable diesels.
The Chevy's Con's: Duramax avoided most of the emissions devices but does come with an EGR system (which as I understand it puts exhaust gases back into the engine and lead to reliability issues in the long run); IFS (supposedly very strong but still might be a limitation for some of the roads I'll want to explore); supposedly Chevy's of that generation had rust issues.

Thoughts?

Love my LBZ truck. Probably my favorite vehicle that I've built/owned. Oh, and I did "fix" the only cons that you speak of....



With the camper, my truck weighs just over 10k lbs. Mileage is ~13-14mpg. Not great by any means, and I honestly think a lot of the "my diesel pulls a 40' trailer and gets 21mpg is BS. But, with 630whp on tap it will hold highway speeds at any elevation and any amount of head wind. It's really effortless, which is what I was going for rather than fuel mileage.

 

[Clutch]

The older diesels definitely seem to yield a significant fuel savings in the long run. They key part is that it will take a few years for the savings in fuel to make up for the higher used price. And yes, I do agree that some of the used 5.9L, LBZ and Ford diesels are commanding way too high of a price right now. I see some of the more heavily used ones going for $18K-$23K which makes sense, after all diesels generally do depreciate slower than gasoline engines. But some of the more "pristine" ones going for $34k-$40k is ridiculous...at that price I might as well go buy a newer 6.7L Cummins or Duramax and deal with the emissions crap.






I agree with both of you on the state of Toyota's vehicles in the US. I'll be frank in saying I just don't get what all of the hype is in regards to the "new" Tacoma they came out with. 3.5L atkinson engine (which really doesn't seem like a torquey truck engine IMHO), still using drum brakes, c-channel frame (the Hilux, Landcruiser, and 4runner and pretty much every domestic full-sized all use boxed frames for a reason), and no small diesel engine options.

If Toyota would've just brought over their global Hilux platform (like Ford is planning on doing with the Ranger) and plopped an emissions compliant Duramax or Cummins inline 4 turbo diesel in it, the would've made a killing. Instead, they make a few tweaks to a 10 year old, North American-based pickup platform, call it a "new" generation and all the Toyota fans lose their minds....lol, makes no sense in my book.

And this is coming from a Toyota diehard...if Toyota were to bring over the LandCruiser 70 series (the real Landcruiser) and put something like the new Cummins V8 in it, I'd readily hand over my money.

Do not like the direction Toyota has gone...they basically became dead to me in '05.

Thought about importing a LC70 UTE....dunno, lot of coin paying for a 25+ year old clapped vehicle, which be a pain the ******** getting parts for...and know it is gonna need work. All the while you can run out and buy a brand new RCSB fullsize truck for the same amount of money, or even less. Which will perform the same duties, it just won't have the cool factor.

It is like those old Fords I like...I want one!...no...no...no I don't. Just be constantly wrenching on it. Maybe it is me getting older, perhaps lazier...or just plain fed up...rather take it to have someone wrench on it. Rather spend my time doing something else, anymore.

Yeah, I agree with you on the pricing. I'm hoping to wait that out a bit and see if the next recession brings the used prices down a bit. Otherwise, at the prices sellers are asking for, I'm very tempted just to bypass these pre-emission generations and go get a newer diesel and figure out something with the emissions crap.

Hopefully the next recession will stave off until I off my rental properties. These last 2 years, real estate is starting to spike again, it is good and a bad thing at the same time. Don't take a nose dive just yet! Keep climbing for 3 more years!

Is there really anything wrong with the emissions stuff? Doesn't hamper mpg all that much, carrying a jug of DEF isn't too difficult. Could get a cleaner low mile truck too. If saving fuel and range is concerning you, have you thought of spending a little more on the GM midsize diesel? Double the mileage over a 3/4 ton sounds great, and it sounds like you don't need much payload and more towing capacity. Should be able to yank around a couple sleds and a boat no problem.

I am starting to see them in the low 30's. At $40K...not much of deal, but low $30's...seems fairly reasonable. Wish they came in the base WT model, to get the price under $30K. 30mpg, 7000 lbs towing capacity...for low 30's...sounds like a great travel rig.

 

[Dalko43]

Is there really anything wrong with the emissions stuff? Doesn't hamper mpg all that much, carrying a jug of DEF isn't too difficult. Could get a cleaner low mile truck too. If saving fuel and range is concerning you, have you thought of spending a little more on the GM midsize diesel? Double the mileage over a 3/4 ton sounds great, and it sounds like you don't need much payload and more towing capacity. Should be able to yank around a couple sleds and a boat no problem.

I am starting to see them in the low 30's. At $40K...not much of deal, but low $30's...seems fairly reasonable. Wish they came in the base WT model, to get the price under $30K. 30mpg, 7000 lbs towing capacity...for low 30's...sounds like a great travel rig.

The 07+ diesels have 3 main emissions systems: DPF, DEF, and EGR. Reading up on the DPF and EGR, they seem to rob the engine of some of its performance (not a huge deal considering the HP and torque numbers these newer trucks are putting out) and mpg (I've heard of 6.7L owners getting 3-5mpg back after deleting those systems) and they add significant complexity and potential for breakdowns. The DPF is especially bad because it relies on late-cycle fuel injection to regenerate, or clean off, the particulate filter which has been known to cause fuel contamination of the engine oil...it's just not something I'd want to deal with for a long term vehicle.

The DEF, in all honestly, I know very little about in terms of reliability. At a glance, it doesn't seem nearly as intrusive or complicated as the other 2 systems, so you're probably not risking as much by leaving it on, though it is usually part of one big exhaust piece that contains the EGR and DPF as well. So if you decide to lop off the latter 2, you essentially have to remove the DEF by default.

This is why I'm in favor of the pre-emissions trucks. I think some of their latest engine iterations may have had the EGR, but otherwise they avoided most of this complexity and reportedly get half-decent mpg (relatively speaking). Their pricing is the only real drawback.

 

[smlobx]

too bad you aren't considering the 6.0 Ford..
I have one that has been bullet proofed and I'm selling...Properly cared for they are great trucks.

 

[Clutch]

The 07+ diesels have 3 main emissions systems: DPF, DEF, and EGR. Reading up on the DPF and EGR, they seem to rob the engine of some of its performance (not a huge deal considering the HP and torque numbers these newer trucks are putting out) and mpg (I've heard of 6.7L owners getting 3-5mpg back after deleting those systems) and they add significant complexity and potential for breakdowns. The DPF is especially bad because it relies on late-cycle fuel injection to regenerate, or clean off, the particulate filter which has been known to cause fuel contamination of the engine oil...it's just not something I'd want to deal with for a long term vehicle.

The DEF, in all honestly, I know very little about in terms of reliability. At a glance, it doesn't seem nearly as intrusive or complicated as the other 2 systems, so you're probably not risking as much by leaving it on, though it is usually part of one big exhaust piece that contains the EGR and DPF as well. So if you decide to lop off the latter 2, you essentially have to remove the DEF by default.

This is why I'm in favor of the pre-emissions trucks. I think some of their latest engine iterations may have had the EGR, but otherwise they avoided most of this complexity and reportedly get half-decent mpg (relatively speaking). Their pricing is the only real drawback.

Owning a 07+ diesel out of warranty would make me nervous money-wise. Could always buy a new one, then trade it in before the warranty expires.

Or swap a Cummins 5.9 into a F250 chassis, that way you get the best of both world's. Had a buddy do that to his, he loves it. He did do all of his own work, so it wasn't too expensive. Believe he inherited the truck from his dad...has hardly any money into it.

After seeing his, I have considered it...stumbled upon this awhile back.

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/1204dp-million-mile-cummins-rebuild/

But I always just go back to just keep on fixing my old crap which I currently own, instead having some project. No matter how many times I add it up...nothing saves me any money than just making what I already have work. Towing a trailer is the cheapest solution for the problems I don't have.