Project “Polar Bear”: 1989 V2500 Suburban

I'm really curious too (gmt400 vs 800 vs 900).

I grew up with a GMT400 (93 Chevy, z71, std cab short box, 5.7, nv3500). I helped convince my dad to buy it (for the family) new when I was 16. While it was "his", I drove/maintained it until it basically fell apart into a sad sad shell of its original self over the period of 15 years and 120k. I bought almost the same thing, brand new in my 2002 chevy, std cab, short box, 4.8, nv3500, 4x4 etc. My gmt800 has been absolutely stellar. After 14 years and 140k the only problems I've had are with the steering shaft, both window regulators (cables failed) and the ABS controller. Otherwise it still feels like a new truck!

I can't think of one thing better on the older package. The controls are improved, (better brakes, shorter and lighter clutch, tighter less truck like shifting, less drivetrain backlash/slop, and the wipers even turn off without an extra swipe-hah!) better ergonomics (easier to reach controls, especially the stereo location), it's quieter, smoother riding, lighter, gets better mileage, has way, way more power and feels so much tighter (in particular the doors, windows and hood) and less clunky overall.

In college we had the honor of tearing apart a brand new 2000yr Sububan for our hybrid vehicle project. As we tore into it I really was impressed at the improvements over our GMT400. The fit and design of the fenders, chassis, body components seemed like an upgrade, it all seemed to fit better and to be of a higher quality to me. Hard to pinpoint why but it just felt like they cared a lot more when they designed this gen truck. We had an engineer from GM pointing out all the things they did to shave weight and as we went though everything it impressed me enough that my first/only new car I've ever bought is my GMT800 Chevy pickup.

Funny side note, we got the suburban with 1000 miles on it. I checked the hour meter and it said "11.x"!!

I guess my mind is already made up! But I am very curious in your thoughts being more of a GM insider, a fellow GMT800 owner and especially how they apply to the GMT900. I really am thinking about a GMT900 Tahoe, my only hold up is that I can't wrap my head around owning a car with an automatic..... But if I have to drive an auto, the six speed seems like a massive upgrade; and they are newer so it's easier to find one that meets my needs/quality expectations.

The things I've noticed in test driving is the the interior looks better, but feels cheaper. The seats feel cheaper (especially the cloth ones). The manual climate control temp knobs are annoying. The auto climate seems ok. Wood trim looks cheap, when equipped. They have a poorer rocker panel/ lower door design. Rear seat design kinda stinks in that it's rediculous that there isn't room to sleep in the back of a Tahoe... And that's about the only negatives I found. Oh and it's really hard to find one with the tow package/low range/coolers/lower gears etc. I can't fathom how a person would not check the box and pay $250 more for that.
 

Larry

Bigassgas Explorer
Sorry for the late reply, as I just don't have as much time to play on the forums as I used to.

The reality is each one of those platforms has their pro's and con's. Each generation appeals to each individual differently based on personal preference or intended use. I am more of a traditionalist where I like the TRUCK-based aspect of Suburban's. That is not so much what the latest K2XX Suburban is about. It is a trucklett built for people that should be driving cars.

Below is a quick thrown together list of my personal pro and con opinion of each one. My list is mainly based on 2500 series Suburban's rather than 1500. Personally, my preference in Suburbans are the GMT400 and 800 even more so over the old square body Burbs like my Polar Bear. When I started this Polar Bear project I really wanted a GMT400 (96-99 2500 L29) or a CUCV K5 Blazer as a project but when I saw the Polar Bear I just had to have it because it was somewhat rare and just exactly what I would have bought back in 1989 if I would have been old enough to buy a new truck at that time (3/4 ton/white/barn doors/manual trans/tan interior). Someday I would still love to build a GMT400 or 800 Burb.

GMT400: 1992-1999
Pros-
- First Suburban with computer aided engineering
- For the first time in Suburban history a big block gas engine was finally offered in a 4x4. Prior to 1992, only small blocks were available in 4x4 Suburbans
- Tighter tolerances & fit and finish
- Stronger frames than previous generations
- More comfortable and ergonomic
- Turbo diesel option for the diesel types
- 400 Suburban's still look modern today even 24 years after the first ones were launched in 1992
- Unlike their square body predecessors, when looking at used ones there is no wondering if it has EFI and OD. All had EFI and OD.
- Many parts can still be purchased new from GM (not totally reliant on the aftermarket like older ones)
- 400's today can be had for very little money
- The 1996-1999 L29 7.4L 454 was hands down the best 454 ever built (truck use 454)

Cons-
- Many consider IFS a con, which I had the same thought but the older I get and the better the aftermarket suspension suppliers have gotten in the past several years the more I embrace IFS. If I ever scored a 400 Suburban probably would not consider a SFA swap that I used to feel would be the first essential upgrade.
- 92 - 95 TBI 5.7 and 7.4L engines were not strong runners but they were as durable as an anvil
- 92 - 94 Suburbans had a pretty awkward dash with funky HVAC and audio controls
- 1996-2000 had electric shift 4x4 as an option (a manual floor shift was standard on all Sububans including LT models). The good news electric shift was not standard yet. Electric shift was a straight out free flow option until 2000 model year
images


GMT800 2000-2006
Pros-

- Introduction of the L18 8.1L. IMHO, the best Big Block gas ever built.
- The 6.0L gas ellipsed the prior 5.7L in almost every way
- Still shared pickup truck body styling
- Still had truck bumpers
- More creature features (memory seating, heated seats, auto HVAC, push button 4x4 standard, etc.)
- These are also now old enough where they can be picked up pretty cheap and almost everything can still be purchased new from GM.
- Much more aftermarket support for heavy duty IFS suspension components and lift kits (very nice non-torsion bar drop lift kits, HD steering and suspension components from suppliers like Cognito Motorsports)

Cons-
- Push button AutoCrap 4x4 became standard
- Gen III V8 engines breaking exhaust manifold bolts. Very common on just about any 4.8, 5.3 and 6.0L engine in any GMT800/900 application
- Gen III V8 engines also eat engine mounts in pretty much all GMT800 applications. The exhaust manifolds run too close to the engine mounts where it causes the rubber to become brittle and break apart. Unlike older vehicles, you really don't hear or feel the engine moving around but you will notice the air induction pipe falls down and rubs the fan shroud. If it rubs long enough a hole will appear in the air pipe and the engine will be eating dirty air.
- More things to go wrong (memory seating, heated seats, auto HVAC, push button AutoCrap 4x4,)
- 800's don't seem to age as well as the 400's. Interior seat foam breaks down quickly, fabric is less than sterling, seat belts mechanisms (inside seats) seem to wear out quickly
- Auto trans shift lever mechanism wears out pretty quickly where the handle gets wobbly
Chevrolet-Suburban_2001_1024x768_wallpaper_01.jpg


GMT900: 2007 – 2014
Pros-
- 6 speed automatic. Not sure I'm completely in the boat in agreement that this is a pro as the 6L80/90's are busy. Always shifting and shifting and shifting and shifting although they seem to be more robust and durable than the 4L80E

Cons –
- 2500's are rare as hens teeth.
- A 2500 with a real 10.5” full-floating axle is very hard to find. Not sure what drove on a FF rear axle but some 2500's had it while most had the 9.5” semi-floater
- Batteries became top post with extremely cheap and flimsy battery clamps that look like they were pruned straight from a Kia
- Questionable body design different from trucks. That may have been a good thing considering how distastefull GMT900 Silverado's look
- Rubber bumpers covers on front and rear
- No seat mounted arm rests
- Interior and dash layout that can only rival an Impala rental car
- Paper thin sheet metal
- Poor body stampings & body assembly quality (front inner fenders constantly fall down, stamping divots found throughout body)
- Lack of rocker panels below doors allows for dirt, ice and debris to collect under the door so you can smear the crap all over your leg as you enter and exit the vehicle. This also allows for the doors to easily freeze shut
Chevrolet-Suburban_LTZ_2007_1024x768_wallpaper_03.jpg


Lack of lower rocker panel. The door edge runs even with the road where it easily chips and rusts. GMT900 trucks were the same way. This isn't as noticeable on Tahoe/Suburban that have OEM running boards
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K2XX: 2015 – Current
Pros –

- Not sure there are any other than the Suburban nameplate is still alive but it is a great large SUV for someone that really should be driving a CUV or a car

Cons-

- Too many to list but for one, they are flat out ugly
- Extremely paper thin sheetmetal
- Even though the K2XX Silverado/Sierra got lower rocker panels below the doors the big SUV's did not
- Lack of 2500 series model for retail customers. A 2500 series K2XX Suburban just came available for 2016 model year but only for FLEET customers.
GM has totally lost their way with the flagship fullsize SUV. Seriously, do you think people are going to want to restore these things in 30 to 50 years?
Chevrolet-Suburban_2015_1024x768_wallpaper_07.jpg


Let's not totally derail the Polar Bear thread with other unrelated Suburban discussions. Please start a new thread
 
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justcuz

Explorer
Thanks for the reply and your insight.

Given that the Suburban with the 241 has a better crawl ratio than the truck with the 205, it will be interesting to compare their capabilities on the trip.

I realize the truck carries a lot more weight, that in my mind would justify an even lower crawl ratio for the truck.
I would be tempted to see what a NP241OR 4/1 low range would do. Pretty sure the OR planetary can be swapped in to a passenger drop 241.

With a 6.34 1st geared NV4500 low/low crawl would be 115.6
With a 5.61 1st geared NV4500 low/low crawl would be 102.3
2nd gear low would be lower than your current 205 low/low ratio.

They used 241's behind Dodge diesels starting in 1994, I'm sure it would live behind the big block.
 

bigT74

busted knuckles
so whats next?

Larry,

what are your next steps on the Polar Bear? I noticed you were planning a trip? Is it intended to be a shakedown or will you be modifying something new prior to trip? I've enjoyed the upgrades and changes you have made so far! We are all looking forward to what's next! :Wow1:

Thanks!

Christian
 

Larry

Bigassgas Explorer
Larry,

what are your next steps on the Polar Bear? I noticed you were planning a trip? Is it intended to be a shakedown or will you be modifying something new prior to trip? I've enjoyed the upgrades and changes you have made so far! We are all looking forward to what's next! :Wow1:

Thanks!

Christian

Who knows, there is always something to be done/modify…LOL. Projects like the Polar Bear and K10 never end…they just get better. Over the past two weeks I’ve been scrambling on getting the Polar Bear ready for the Expo Trip, then our annual Desert Trip coming up in June and to accommodate a new receiver hitch accessory. The reman NV4500 I got a few weeks ago turned out to be a boomerang where it had to go back and a fresh one arrived Tuesday. The first reman had a horrible noise in 5th gear under a coast with a slight tip in of the throttle. It was bad to the point the entire driveline as vibrating. The fresh one that arrived this week is 90% better but not as quiet as the NV4500 in the K10 or the one I sent to this reman company as a core. The original issue with the one I sent in as a core was it required a fist fight to punch it in to 5th gear. The new one shifts super smooth but, unfortunately its loud which is a common complaint with NV4500s. Oh, well….I’m just going to run it and when it dies I am done with these damn NV4500’s and will look at other alternatives including going to an automatic. This burb is one its 4th NV4500 (2 rebuilds on the original to address the hard to shift 5th gear and 2 remans) and the K10 has been through 3rd since 2010. Right now, I am not sure how I feel about NV4500’s. They’re certainly not an anvil of a trans like a SM465!

Then last week we drug home a towing hitch accessory… A 2016 Surveyor 245BHS Travel Trailer (5,100 lbs. dry). Now that the Burb has plenty of gonads the wife got a bug for a travel trailer and I jumped on the opportunity while she was in the mood and changed her mind. You know how that goes with wives! We’re planning on a family road trip to Missouri sometime this summer and a trip to ND to see her sister in August. We’re taking the burb and trailer on an overnighter close by this weekend as the inaugural run.

Since the burb was torn down waiting on a transmission when we got the trailer last Friday I used the Silverado to pull it home. Without a weight distribution hitch it was dragging ***
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And of course we had to play in the trailer this week in the yard :elkgrin:. The little monkey loves her bunk bed
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So while the Burb was torn down waiting on the latest reman transmission I added second battery, dual battery isolator, trailer brake controller, home grown theft deterrent system and replaced the cigarette lighter with a USB port. Also found the radiator is leaking AGAIN! This damn radiator has been a never ending saga for a year now. Post 437 has more details. Anyway, Monday the radiator will come out and go back to the radiator shop for the 3rd time.

Dual battery dealeo….Painless Dual Battery Isolator
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Here she is as of this evening with the Surveyor latched up and ready to roll. I pulled it around with the burb this afternoon for the first time after installing the weight distribution hitch and it pulls so nice!
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But, this is the trailer I am dragging to the Overland Expo. Momma doesn’t want the Surveyor’s first big trip go without her (she is not going to Expo with me). The Expo trip will be the first long road trip/shake down run for the Burb and the new powertrain. I want to get some good miles on it before it comes along on the June Desert Trip. As I mentioned a few posts ago, one of my work buddies and his wife are coming out from Chicago to join us on the trip this year so he will be piloting the Polar Bear and I’ll cruising the K10 as usual. This trailer actually belongs to my in-laws.
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I guess the Polar Bear now has a defined purpose…. The family truckster towrig and back up Expo runner
 

chilliwak

Expedition Leader
Wow,:Wow1: some nice trailer you have there Larry! Glad to see the polal bear out and running again even if there has been trans and rad problems. As always your rigs look soooo fine. thanks for posting. Cheers, Chilli..:)
 
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MTCK

Observer
Congrats on the new house on wheels! Bummer about all the trans and rad problems. Hopefully they are behind you.
 

1stDeuce

Explorer
That is certainly a nice home on wheels!!! It's amazing how much better the new RV's look... Wife and I live in a 2002 King of the Road 36' 5-er. It's nicer than all of the houses I've rented. :) We would really like a newer one with the darker wood, and the forward living area, but we're in it to live cheap and collect $$ for some property eventually, and the ones that look like yours inside are 4x more than we paid for ours, so it'll do. :)

Looks like the 'burb is coming along quite nicely!! I'm amazed that you've been through so many 4500's. The one in my 6.5L stripped the splines between the trans and t-case at about 220k miles, and I rebuilt it myself with new input and output shafts, a bearing and seal kit, and new synchro's. It shifted wonderfully when I was done, and didn't make any noise. (That I could hear over the 6.5L...)

Sounds like the ones you're getting have messed up 5th gears in them... Wonder if that's because at some point they worked loose?? One important thing that I'm sure you know... The 4500 does NOT use 90wt. You have to run the "Synchromesh" fluid that GM sells, or the aftermarket version. If you put regular dinosaur 80W90 in them, the synchro's get soft and fail eventually. Something about the sulfer... You can quiet them down some if they rattle by running half full synthetic 90wt, and half synchromesh. (Full synthetic is OK, just not the old school stuff.) I run half and half in the 3550 in my Jeep to keep it from rattling. It's a tiny bit stiff on a cold morning, but it loosens up quickly, and is much quieter.

Of course, I've seen brass synchro ring kits for them too... You can run regular 90wt with those, but they don't shift nearly as well from what I recall...

So much for wanting a 4500 in my '02 shop truck... I'll just keep booting the 4L80 until it does. Which will probably be never. :)

Wish I was going to ExPo this year... A friend from MI is coming out and we're going to do a 4 day motorcycle ride around Utah... (I know, life is tough...)

Have a good trip!!
:)
 

Bushcoat

one trail at a time
Congratulations on the trailer, something fun to have with a family. I keep trying to get out of ours, but my wife loves having it, and she's obviously got the upper hand. But I am looking for something smaller, or a pop up truck camper for towing longer distances, you know how the 6.0 is on gas!!! Hah!
 

Larry

Bigassgas Explorer
Wow,:Wow1: some nice trailer you have there Larry! Glad to see the polal bear out and running again even if there has been trans and rad problems. As always your rigs look soooo fine. thanks for posting. Cheers, Chilli..:)

Thanks Chilli!

Congrats on the new house on wheels! Bummer about all the trans and rad problems. Hopefully they are behind you.

Hopefully so! :smiley_drive:

That is certainly a nice home on wheels!!! It's amazing how much better the new RV's look... Wife and I live in a 2002 King of the Road 36' 5-er. It's nicer than all of the houses I've rented. :) We would really like a newer one with the darker wood, and the forward living area, but we're in it to live cheap and collect $$ for some property eventually, and the ones that look like yours inside are 4x more than we paid for ours, so it'll do. :)

Looks like the 'burb is coming along quite nicely!! I'm amazed that you've been through so many 4500's. The one in my 6.5L stripped the splines between the trans and t-case at about 220k miles, and I rebuilt it myself with new input and output shafts, a bearing and seal kit, and new synchro's. It shifted wonderfully when I was done, and didn't make any noise. (That I could hear over the 6.5L...)

Sounds like the ones you're getting have messed up 5th gears in them... Wonder if that's because at some point they worked loose?? One important thing that I'm sure you know... The 4500 does NOT use 90wt. You have to run the "Synchromesh" fluid that GM sells, or the aftermarket version. If you put regular dinosaur 80W90 in them, the synchro's get soft and fail eventually. Something about the sulfer... You can quiet them down some if they rattle by running half full synthetic 90wt, and half synchromesh. (Full synthetic is OK, just not the old school stuff.) I run half and half in the 3550 in my Jeep to keep it from rattling. It's a tiny bit stiff on a cold morning, but it loosens up quickly, and is much quieter.

Of course, I've seen brass synchro ring kits for them too... You can run regular 90wt with those, but they don't shift nearly as well from what I recall...

So much for wanting a 4500 in my '02 shop truck... I'll just keep booting the 4L80 until it does. Which will probably be never. :)

Wish I was going to ExPo this year... A friend from MI is coming out and we're going to do a 4 day motorcycle ride around Utah... (I know, life is tough...)

Have a good trip!!
:)

Thanks! I think I’ve just had bad luck with them plus my tolerance to noises is pretty much zero. Many people would have probably lived with the first reman but for the money I wasn’t going to tolerate that much noise and the vibration was concerning. The reman company uses all new parts but there aren’t many major OEM NV4500 replacement parts (mainshafts, gear sets, etc.) to be had any more so pretty much all of the major parts are Chinese repops these days. That is probably one big issue with many reman transmissions. I use only the GM suggested fluid in these (12346190). Not an equivalent, but the real deal GM $uperjuice. Bummer you’re not going to expo this year. Would be fun to meet you.


Congratulations on the trailer, something fun to have with a family. I keep trying to get out of ours, but my wife loves having it, and she's obviously got the upper hand. But I am looking for something smaller, or a pop up truck camper for towing longer distances, you know how the 6.0 is on gas!!! Hah!

Thanks! Yeah, I had a 6.0L Silverado HD for a while. Around town it was better on fuel than the 8.1L Silverado but towing the car trailer it drank more fuel than the 8.1L Silverado did. The smaller engines have to work their tail off to do the same work as a BB. 5.3/6.0L don’t make any usable torque until they are spinning 5,000+ RPM’s. Still great engines for daily cruisers though



So we just ran over to Lake Pueblo for an afternoon and night for a maiden voyage. Literally 5 minutes from home. The rear trailer jacks are cranked up to level the back of the trailer so it pulled down the back of the Burb. The burb does not sag like this when cruising. Good times good memories. Many more to come!
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Monkey’s room
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For 2 years/10 months old she learned how to run that fishing pole pretty well :ylsmoke:
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91burban

New member
I've been reading this forum for a long time then I stumbled across this thread and had to finally a make an account! I searched a long time and finally found a 91 V2500 burb for a good deal. I love what you have done with yours and the attention to detail and knowledge is amazing.
 
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mizedog

Observer
Great pics. I plan on taking the family down to Pueblo Res this year. Maybe we'll see ya.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 

Larry

Bigassgas Explorer
Great pics. I plan on taking the family down to Pueblo Res this year. Maybe we'll see ya.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Cool!

A few updates on the ole Burb…

Back during the 8.1L swap I mentioned issues with repeatedly receiving Spectra Premium CU774 radiators that were damaged. Spectra tried to blame the package delivery companies (FedEx on the first and UPS on the 2nd and 3rd) but it was obvious the radiator was poorly packed. After waiting almost 2 months when the 3rd radiator arrived it was damaged too but not as badly so I had it fixed locally. Then about 4 months later it started leaking again. I had it fixed again. Then about 2 weeks prior to heading to Mormon Lake for OX16 it started whizzing coolant again but I was leaving town for a work event. Well, low and behold at the work event (Navistar Parts & Service Expo) I ran ********** dab into Spectra Premium's booth in our vendor display area. I explained the situation to him and he was like….”why didn't you call me?”. Hell, I didn't even know Spectra Premium was a Navistar supplier or I would have. In any event, he said he would have a new CU774 double boxed and shipped from their California warehouse by the end of the week. Hmm, I was a bit skeptical of that being it was already Wednesday. Well, Saturday morning a FedEx Home Delivery truck pulled up and dropped off a double boxed CU774 in perfect shape! Got it installed that very night for a few days of validation before heading to Flagstaff. Glad that radiator debacle is finally behind me.
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The new new one is in front.
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The next thing that had to be addressed before heading out on a 1,400 mile round trip was the exhaust. I've already been through a few mufflers on it since the 8.1L and each muffler was worse than the one before. Somewhere along the line I heard of a muffler called Spintech where they custom build mufflers and all but guarantee there won't be any of the typical drone with aftermarket mufflers, especially Flowmasters. I provided the vehicle and engine specs to the guy at Spintech where he drew up the recipe. I really like the way it turned out. Similar to a Flowmaster but yet entirely different. I'll grab some videos when I get a chance.
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The only issue I had with the muffler is the knuckle heads at the exhaust shop welded a hanger right to the bottom of the body! Yeah, the BODY! The seat belt reinforcement to be exact. Well, that caused one hell of a vibration on the way to Flagstaff where my buddy Bill crawled under with a hacksaw during the expo and pruned it away. No surprise…problem solved.
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A few pictures from the OX16 trip. We camped one night at Hovenweep on the way back home
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Wild horses near Hovenweep. They were everywhere!
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The O16 trip was a shakedown run for the ole Burb in preparation for our annual desert trip coming up in a few weeks. The ole girl did just fine on the 1,400 mile round trip with only a couple simple things to tweak before the big trip. Oh, and delivered an 11.9 MPG average for the complete round trip to OX16. Not too bad for what it is along with pulling a little camp trailer. That is it for now. Got some updates coming for the K10 as well. Getting down to the wire to get these 2 beasts ready to roll for Desert Trip 2016
 

Nosferatu49534

Observer
Well at least the radiator debacle is done with. :) sounds like you need to go to the muffler shop and ********** some one in the back of the head. I mean, I guess they could've missed the frame that was right there......

Looking forward to videos. :)
 

MTCK

Observer
Nice! I always say it's good to have low friends in high places. Was your new radiator Chinese like mine or Canadian?
 

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