Removing rear seats to increase payload capacity?

[ChasingOurTrunks]

They aren't race cars. The 3/4+ trucks have very simple suspensions... really nothing new there for many decades. Bigger trucks (> 1 ton) and nearly all older trucks have torsionally flexible frames by design. They aren't designed to handle "crisis situations" predictably... let alone the fact that 99% of drivers have no clue how to drive in a crisis anyway.

Fair point on the most important part of this -- the person holding the wheel! But, my point isn't that big trucks are "designed" in any particular way that makes them better all around than a 1/2 ton and I agree with you that these are incredibly simple designs (in some cases one could argue going back hundreds of years with regards to the leaf spring; that harks back to the days of horses!)

What I'm saying is that if you take two trucks -- a 1/2 ton with 1200 lbs rated payload, and a 1-ton with 2500 lbs payload, and you put 2500 lbs of stuff in it, the bigger truck is going to carry the weight better, and it's going to perform as expected/designed when operating the vehicle, and that includes in emergency maneuvers. Emergency maneuvers include things like dodging moose without flipping over, which I consider to be an important part of my driving experience!

This is what Consumer Reports had to say about the latest F250 compared to 1/2 ton trucks: " While going in a straight line is one thing, piloting this behemoth in corners is another matter. Handling, in a word, is clumsy, and this monster truck is reluctant to turn. Overall maneuverability is horrid, and the turning circle is laughably huge. Most HD truck buyers get that this is par for the course. " It isn't going to get better with a camper on the back...

No disagreement here either - HD trucks are beasts. They are beasts because they are more heavily built all around. Because they are more heavily built, they do heavy stuff better than little trucks. But, you can't make a Dumptruck handle like a Porsche, these will be what they will be. The Porsche would be pretty terrible at hauling mine waste relative to the Dump Truck though, and while that's an extreme version of this debate, my point is the proper tool exists that's already been built and designed to do the job. A person is welcome to use their Porsche for mine waste. That is not how I would use a Porche if I had one (I'd sell it and buy a 4x4 and leave the mine behind!). And for sure, with enough metal, welding, and time, a Porsche might make a great mine waste vehicle, but that starts getting very "Ship of Theseus" pretty quickly. In a less extreme way, the same applies to 1/2 tons -- they can be modified, sure. But....

Like I said earlier, making a 1/2 ton drive, stop, and handle better with a load than a stock 1 ton is simple. It sure ain't rocket science.

"Simple" is not the same as "easy". Simple for someone who understands the limitations of their rigs, maybe, but there is still a fair bit of wrench turning, design, and engineering know-how to do it properly. Properly, for me, means maintaining factory performance in whatever "new state" your truck is in -- including emergency maneuvers -- and to do that requires at least some modicum of engineering know how. There is a ton of bad information out there which I alluded to in my previous thread, from sales people and unscrupulous folks, to even well-intentioned people who don't know better (I'm sure that last category describes me on many things!). The end result is that the average Overlander can't just go to their local auto shop with a credit card and improve the payload of their rig with a $699 lift kit. But that is a common expectation, especially in communities like this one for folks just starting out.

If you want to really worry about safety, then maybe be concerned about the huge class A motorhomes. How do you think they'd do on the "moose test"? They take ~2x as far to stop as that overloaded 1/2 ton truck you are worried about... and that is perfectly legal. A 93 year old grandpa with poor vision and the reaction time of a sloth can pilot one of these with nothing more than a basic driver's license. How likely do you think it is he knows how to maneuver that rig in a crisis? All those guys driving big trucks and semis are better drivers, but their rigs are inherently terrible at maneuverability and stopping. I doubt they are going to pick running off the road and flipping vs just slamming into you when the choice presents itself.

I give those guys plenty of room for exactly the reasons that you're stating, so I hear you on that one. Also from experience, they tend to just hit the moose (and that's usually OK with the big motorhomes in the same way it's usually OK in a big transport truck; the vehicle is usually done but the people tend to walk away far more often than in passenger vehicle vs moose situations). But I don't personally travel via motorhome so that part isn't relevant to me. In fact, I don't even travel in a 1/2 ton truck. I prefer small and light for my travels, and while I am heavy for the class of vehicle I use, I'm still within design specs. In my personal opinion, bigger is not better. But this thread was based on "I need to haul big things, what should I do?" and for that the correct answer for the overwhelming majority of people is still "buy a bigger truck". But, this last paragraph of yours brings up an important point that I want to clarify; none of my comments were meant to be in judgement of what others do, and I do apologize if it came across that way. I truly don't care what anyone does with their car. If a person wants to drive a motorhome while 90 and blind, that's their choice. If they want to overload a pickup, that's their choice too. If they want to overhaul a pickup to carry a big load, that's totally cool and I'd love to learn what they did and how they approached it - maybe they are in the minority that hits my definition of "properly"! If someone in an overloaded vehicle hits me when I'm out touring, that sucks, but it's statistically unlikely so I'm not to worried about it, and I can't control it anyway. What I can control are the choices that I make with my vehicle, so if a person asks "Hey, what would you do in my situation" I'm going to say....

Big weight = buy bigger truck.

Very much enjoyed the back-and-forth here Rruff and happy for it to continue; this is Thanksgiving Weekend in my part of the world so I may or may not be online the next few days.

Happy thanksgiving folks!

 

[Buddha.]

This is what Consumer Reports had to say about the latest F250 compared to 1/2 ton trucks: " While going in a straight line is one thing, piloting this behemoth in corners is another matter. Handling, in a word, is clumsy, and this monster truck is reluctant to turn. Overall maneuverability is horrid, and the turning circle is laughably huge.

I don’t understand the handling bit. Race cars handle well, they have stiff suspension. Heavy duty trucks have such stiff suspension most don’t even need or have a rear sway bar. I get in my dodge 1500 work truck and compared to my 2500 it feels like it pitches side to side with the slightest steering wheel input. I can keep up with most anybody in turns and the limiting factor is the load range E tires that are probably too stiff for unloaded traction.

 

[Porkchopexpress]

This is what Consumer Reports had to say about the latest F250 compared to 1/2 ton trucks: " While going in a straight line is one thing, piloting this behemoth in corners is another matter. Handling, in a word, is clumsy, and this monster truck is reluctant to turn. Overall maneuverability is horrid,

I have read similar reviews on automotive websites. These reviewers are car enthusiasts who are comparing trucks to Honda Accords. They don't know what they are talking about.

..you can easily mod an overloaded 1/2 ton truck to handle better than any stock 1 ton with the same load.

I don't believe that is accurate.

I agree

Why?

1 ton trucks make hundreds or thousands of compromises in the design that hurt empty handling but improve loaded handling and capacities. For example, the solid front axle in the front and leaf springs in the rear both are inferior to independent and coil suspension but they are more robust to handle heavy loads. If you were to take it a step or two further and compared a semi truck to a 1/2 ton, then obviously a person with no experience in a semi would complain about what a terrible driving experience it is. There are obviously more differences than suspension. If you spent a lot of money modifying a 1/2 ton, I'm sure you could get decent handling if you go a little over max capacity, but I think your statement that I quoted above is a bit of an overstatement.

 

[rruff]

1 ton trucks make hundreds or thousands of compromises in the design that hurt empty handling but improve loaded handling and capacities. For example, the solid front axle in the front and leaf springs in the rear both are inferior to independent and coil suspension but they are more robust to handle heavy loads.

More robust certainly, be we are talking about handling. 1/2 tons make compromises to be commuter vehicles with no load. If you are carrying a heavy load, then more spring, better shocks, and better tires, and maybe the addition of a rear swaybar, will take care of any handling issues. If you upgrade these to quality/performance superior to what typically comes stock on a 1 ton truck (easy to do) then you should get superior handling. Some things may wear out sooner, but you won't have a driving/handling problem.

 

[Porkchopexpress]

More robust certainly, be we are talking about handling. 1/2 tons make compromises to be commuter vehicles with no load. If you are carrying a heavy load, then more spring, better shocks, and better tires, and maybe the addition of a rear swaybar, will take care of any handling issues. If you upgrade these to quality/performance superior to what typically comes stock on a 1 ton truck (easy to do) then you should get superior handling. Some things may wear out sooner, but you won't have a driving/handling problem.

There are a lot of variables and you made a bold generalized statement. How much overweight? 100 lbs? 1000 lbs? Is the 1/2 ton a long wheelbase? The lighter frame weight and independent front suspension will be more susceptible to body roll and nose dive even with stiffer springs with a load in the bed because it will be more top heavy. Are you going to lift the truck to accommodate the larger wheels, brakes and tires? Now you raised the center of gravity even higher. Race cars handle great but need a total rebuild after a few hundred miles, are you suggesting building a disposable truck out of exotic materials? I'm not even in the industry and I recognize the handling shortfalls when overloading a truck. I'm sure an engineer who tests designs could give you many more examples.
I understand your point and I think it can be done but if you reread your original statement, I think you would agree it's a bit all encompassing which makes it easy to find exceptions.

 

[bkg]

Why?

well.. you said "easily."

And you implied safely by comparing to stock 1 ton.

yet ignoring the not-so-subtle differences between 1/2 tons and 1-tons.

Frames.
Axles.
tranfercases
driveshaft sizes
tow equipment sizes

I guess the question should really be: why do you think it's possible and how would you do it?

 

[bkg]

More robust certainly, be we are talking about handling. 1/2 tons make compromises to be commuter vehicles with no load. If you are carrying a heavy load, then more spring, better shocks, and better tires, and maybe the addition of a rear swaybar, will take care of any handling issues. If you upgrade these to quality/performance superior to what typically comes stock on a 1 ton truck (easy to do) then you should get superior handling. Some things may wear out sooner, but you won't have a driving/handling problem.

EDIT: you said handling with THE SAME LOAD in your initial statement.

yeah... still no... Still nooooooway.

 

[tacollie]

Our overloaded 08' Tundra handle better then our stock 19' F250 did with the same weight in the bed. I had to add stiffer springs, e rated tires, and a rear sway bar. Solid axles do not perform as well at speed. I honestly don't know if the 3/4 would perform as well as the Tundra in the "moose" test since it's 800lbs heavier stock. It's not designed to handle good it's designed to carry a bunch of weight. I would rather be 1000lbs under GVWR than 500lbs over. I like having the bigger components that are factory to begin with. I also think the stiffer frame will prolong the FWC life.

 

[Adam_Cole]

I run a Chevy 1 ton dually stock with a 32 ft gooseneck. GCVW is roughly 28k lbs but I’m apportioned for 25,999 for tax purposes; generally I weigh in around 25k lbs. I have around 2000 pounds over the hitch and the remaining weight over the trailer tandems.
I’ve towed this setup roughly 8k miles a month, 5 months a year back and forth across the US, since 2015 and have had zero issues on a stock truck; no upgraded springs, no upgraded brakes, no upgraded anything (unfortunately stock fuel tank).
I’m also able to maintain proper speed limits pulling 6% grades as well as utilizing exhaust brakes while descending down passes without having to ride my brakes the whole time.
Yes it drives like a bloated whale and I sure as hell can’t stop when traveling over 50mph but it’s a heavy truck and I expect that.
I’ve driven commercially since 2003 with well over a million towing miles and it’s always been my experience that larger vehicles handle payloads better, especially if you’re looking for longevity and reliability.
The biggest hazards I run into these days is everyone driving around in their overloaded vehicles pulling trailers or driving motor homes that are too big swaying all over the damn road and going 30 in a 70. Seems like everyone has the same idea, buy something that can barely do the job and then overload the crap out of it and get in everyone’s way.

Just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Porkchopexpress]

This is kind of turning into a pointless internet debate because better handling is subjective, (separated from safety).

 

[scott7022]

Come to read about removing rear seats to increase payload capacity on power wagon. See 100 posts about my super build overkill "name brand" is so super that it don't matter. Sprinkled with "well my truck" regurgitate physics and mechanical engineering learned in grade eight...why I never post or use this forum much.
Fact weight max payload is on your door for a reason. Go over and get stopped or worse is a bad day.
Fact two beers max blood level is by law for a reason. As they say in Thailand "same same"

Rant off

Go back to your super killer mega wonderful, Stephen Hawking level discussion.

 

[rruff]

And you implied safely by comparing to stock 1 ton.
I guess the question should really be: why do you think it's possible and how would you do it?

None of those things you mentioned effect safety. Heavier duty parts should be more durable, but that's a different issue. Upgrade tires, shocks, and springs for the load.

Our overloaded 08' Tundra handle better then our stock 19' F250 did with the same weight in the bed. I had to add stiffer springs, e rated tires, and a rear sway bar. Solid axles do not perform as well at speed. I honestly don't know if the 3/4 would perform as well as the Tundra in the "moose" test since it's 800lbs heavier stock. It's not designed to handle good it's designed to carry a bunch of weight.

The 1/2 tons all come from the factory tuned to be comfortable commuter cars with no load. Upgrading them to haul some weight is easy.

This is kind of turning into a pointless internet debate because better handling is subjective, (separated from safety).

Where safety is concerned I think being able to stop and maneuver quickly would be the criteria. All these trucks suck in that respect compared to cars (but are also much better than large "legal" vehicles on the road), and there are some tradeoffs when tuning for offroad performance vs street. But bigger higher load tires (more rubber on the road, stiffer sidewalls), appropriate springs for the load, and shocks with higher compression damping, should work well in both scenarios.

Slamming on the brakes (and not turning) is usually the first thing to do... swerve at the last second (brakes off) after some speed has been shed.

Fact weight max payload is on your door for a reason. Go over and get stopped or worse is a bad day.

The law will not bother you, and insurance companies will not fail to pay a claim for being over GVWR. Not if you are a personal user in the US anyway.

 

[bkg]

The law will not bother you, and insurance companies will not fail to pay a claim for being over GVWR. Not if you are a personal user in the US anyway.

You can guarantee that, how?

 

[rruff]

You can guarantee that, how?

Way too much time on the internet researching this topic on camper and RV forums. But you can keep believing it's a danger even though it never happens. It could though, the chances aren't zero! You might be the first...

 

[Lownomore]

Way too much time on the internet researching this topic on camper and RV forums. But you can keep believing it's a danger even though it never happens. It could though, the chances aren't zero! You might be the first...

Don't be shocked if insurance companies figure this out at some point though. Their whole business model is saving themselves money and if they can find a reason to deny a claim they will. I had a customer several years ago that was denied coverage on a whiplash claim due to her having removed the factory headrests. Justifiable in my opinion but not something most people would ever think about.

Just because they haven't done it here doesn't mean they won't and with a lot of Toyotas it doesn't take a trained eye to see that they are well over GVM. All it takes is some adjusters with a little training for people to lose a lot of money.