Balancing Payload capacity vs. Offroad

[windtraveler]

I think I can give you some advice on that one... get a throttle controller or tune for the F150. Toyota changed the programming on the Tundra in 2013 to make the throttle response suck as well. It was extremely aggravating! Normally I drive pretty mildly, and the computer's response was to only give me maybe 20% of the engine if I pushed the throttle down 50%, with the other 80% of the engine happening in the last 50%. Very non-linear. If I really need to move I had to floor it, and of course it would give me 100% of the engine then, which meant the tires lit up, and the traction control came on, and the truck quit moving... maddening! A $90 throttle controller has mostly fixed it. A tune would cost more, but also give you more options and better performance.

The F150 turbo has more low end torque and is lighter, so should be faster off the line unless you have high gearing.

I have a 2024 F150 with the 5ltr V8. I'm pretty impressed with it overall. I'm hesitant to start off the line full bore because it seems like the transmission doesn't care for it too much, but that may just be me not being used to a 10 speed electronic transmission. However, at highway speeds, the truck's acceleration is impressive when passing other vehicles.

 

[UglyViking]

In an HD Ford or Ram truck you can throw RCV's in the front and shave about an 1/8th inch off the stops. It may not sound like much, but it makes a HUGE difference in turning radius.

I had already planned to swap RCVs in my build long term, but I had not read about shaving the stops. Where did you hear that? Curious to read up on it as any increase in turning radius is a huge pro. The Dodge HD trucks are already best in the turning radius department (even beating out current gen F-150 and Tundras) but getting more is always better.

 

[gatorgrizz27]

I’m not saying payload capacity should be completely disregarded, but the way manufacturers calculate it doesn’t transfer in the real world. I’m guessing it has to do with them not testing every version of the truck, so they do it via spreadsheet.

Typically the 2wd regular cab trucks are the lightest weight, and therefore have the highest payload and tow ratings, as they are based on GVWR and GCWR minus curb weights. Anything you add to the truck reduces that on paper.

Say that F150 is rated to tow 13,000 lbs, where the Crew Cab 4wd option is rated to tow 11,000 lbs. Add some load range E tires in stock size, a rear sway bar, toolbox in the bed, and the longer truck should be de-rated to even less.

Now put 12,000 lbs behind each truck and see who handles it better, anywhere besides a timed run pulling up a straight level hill with no wind. Longer, heavier truck will do it better every single time, as long as the COG isn’t too tall. A 6” lift with 37’s and 4 loaded Pelican cases on the roof rack aren’t the same.

The simplest way to get both good towing/hauling and off road comfort is going to be something like a BFG A/T running 60 lbs on the road and 35 lbs on the trails. I have put plenty of trucks places they had no business going, and 95% of the guys that hand wring about off road performance and packages are scared of getting a scratch on their vehicle.

The limiting factor besides driver skill on anything with 33”+ all terrains and a rear traction aid is accepting body damage, and arguably length in some situations. If you’re not willing to risk rolling your vehicle with your family inside it in the backcountry (which you shouldn’t be IMO), just put some tires on it and learn how to drive.

It’s the classic backpacking example of “carrying your fears” where guys have a rain jacket, a poncho, two knives, a hatchet, 3 extra layers of clothing, a military style first aid kit, 4 flashlights, a main stove, a mini backup stove, etc.

 

[Kingsize24]

I had already planned to swap RCVs in my build long term, but I had not read about shaving the stops. Where did you hear that? Curious to read up on it as any increase in turning radius is a huge pro. The Dodge HD trucks are already best in the turning radius department (even beating out current gen F-150 and Tundras) but getting more is always better.

I didn't read this, I've done this. RCV axles are absolutely nothing new, its just an improved CV. I have high angle CV axles from G-Force in my IRS GTO. I've run RCV's in my Jeeps with shaved stops. I've also done it with custom axles I've made using 934 CV's, when you used to be able to get OEM housings for $89, and then broach splines into OEM GM Dana 44 axles after cutting off the yolks. CV axles generally are designed to produce a much higher angle load before bottoming the housing, unless you buy the cheap Chinese 3 ball housings. So... this is experience, not anything I've read.

 

[UglyViking]

I didn't read this, I've done this. RCV axles are absolutely nothing new, its just an improved CV. I have high angle CV axles from G-Force in my IRS GTO. I've run RCV's in my Jeeps with shaved stops. I've also done it with custom axles I've made using 934 CV's, when you used to be able to get OEM housings for $89, and then broach splines into OEM GM Dana 44 axles after cutting off the yolks. CV axles generally are designed to produce a much higher angle load before bottoming the housing, unless you buy the cheap Chinese 3 ball housings. So... this is experience, not anything I've read.

That's good to know! I know RCVs have been around a long time, I just didn't realize you could trim your stops in addition to getting additional movement while in 4x4. I'll def be looking into this more. Thanks for saying something, never would have guessed!

 

[Kingsize24]

That's good to know! I know RCVs have been around a long time, I just didn't realize you could trim your stops in addition to getting additional movement while in 4x4. I'll def be looking into this more. Thanks for saying something, never would have guessed!

The easiest way, is to take them to full bend in hand while spinning them, if the manufacturer doesn't give you the max articulated angle themselves. Then take that number and put in your CV axles while at full lock. Slowly shave off a bit from each stop, from each side using a grinding wheel, to be just a few degrees off max. You may be surprised how much you can get from it over a standard u-joint axle. Your limiting factor will generally be your tire to frame clearance with large tires.

 

[UglyViking]

The easiest way, is to take them to full bend in hand while spinning them, if the manufacturer doesn't give you the max articulated angle themselves. Then take that number and put in your CV axles while at full lock. Slowly shave off a bit from each stop, from each side using a grinding wheel, to be just a few degrees off max. You may be surprised how much you can get from it over a standard u-joint axle. Your limiting factor will generally be your tire to frame clearance with large tires.

Super good info. A few degrees would be quite a dramatic change in turning radius, so anything that improves would be a welcome addition, especially considering I'm planning RCVs anyway, so a little bit of extra work to get some benefit is great!

 

[Bayou Boy]

Having owned myriad trucks from half ton all the way up to 1 ton, all SRW, I personally think unless your very specific circumstances warrant a super narrow truck or super tight turning radius most people traveling on normal BLM and FS roads with camping gear and a family should be in 3/4 ton trucks. Half tons drive like trash when loaded up with the normal load for a couple or family for multiday vehicle based camping unless you spend a ton of money modifying the suspension to essentially carry 3/4 ton truck loads. They aren't much if any smaller than a 6.5ft bed HD truck and won't go anywhere the HD truck won't. If you will be modifying suspension anyway, a Ram or Ford HD truck with a mild Carli or Thuren setup on 37s will be significantly more comfortable and capable than any half ton on 35s and get the same or better fuel mileage.

The turning radius difference in a Ford vs Ram HD is noticeable BTW. It's a real thing but a 3 point turn fixes it. Also, people may not realize this but a Ram 2500 on soft springs (Powerwagon) handles like trash on the highway when loaded down for a family trip. Been there and moved back to a 1 ton on leafs. It is crazy comfy on dirt though. From my experience, the straight vertical travel of rear leafs is significantly more comfortable and controllable at speed with a load than the way a coil setup moves slightly sideways during the travel. I experienced that with both the coil half ton and the PW.

I think people that have never owned an HD truck have this mental issue with "big" trucks that's not reality. For most people loading down vehicles the way a lot off us do, they are simply the far better option. Weigh your people and gear plus the crap we bolt to trucks and see how far over 1000# you are. It's pretty easy to break that number and HD trucks carry that without even blinking.

 

[p nut]

Having owned myriad trucks from half ton all the way up to 1 ton, all SRW, I personally think unless your very specific circumstances warrant a super narrow truck or super tight turning radius most people traveling on normal BLM and FS roads with camping gear and a family should be in 3/4 ton trucks. Half tons drive like trash when loaded up with the normal load for a couple or family for multiday vehicle based camping unless you spend a ton of money modifying the suspension to essentially carry 3/4 ton truck loads. They aren't much if any smaller than a 6.5ft bed HD truck and won't go anywhere the HD truck won't. If you will be modifying suspension anyway, a Ram or Ford HD truck with a mild Carli or Thuren setup on 37s will be significantly more comfortable and capable than any half ton on 35s and get the same or better fuel mileage.

The turning radius difference in a Ford vs Ram HD is noticeable BTW. It's a real thing but a 3 point turn fixes it. Also, people may not realize this but a Ram 2500 on soft springs (Powerwagon) handles like trash on the highway when loaded down for a family trip. Been there and moved back to a 1 ton on leafs. It is crazy comfy on dirt though.
I think people that have never owned an HD truck have this mental issue with "big" trucks that's not reality. For most people loading down vehicles the way a lot off us do, they are simply the far better option.

Not that I completely disagree, but on the point of 1/2 tons driving “like trash” when loaded up, I don’t agree with. Especially on-road, where the bulk of most folk’s travel mileage is.
F150’s can have 2000-2,900lb payload. That’s a lot of weight you can carry. I’ve not had issues when under payload max. And get better mpg than my 3/4 ton.

Half tons have their place. Glad we have choices.

 

[Bayou Boy]

Not that I completely disagree, but on the point of 1/2 tons driving “like trash” when loaded up, I don’t agree with. Especially on-road, where the bulk of most folk’s travel mileage is.
F150’s can have 2000-2,900lb payload. That’s a lot of weight you can carry. I’ve not had issues when under payload max. And get better mpg than my 3/4 ton.

Half tons have their place. Glad we have choices.

F150s with that much weight capacity are stripped regular cabs I’m pretty sure. That’s not really applicable to this discussion. Most crew cab 4wds are in the 1200-1700# range.

That gets eaten up very quickly from my experience, especially once people put LT tires, toppers, etc on the truck. The amount of half tons I see up here in Montana during hunting season with sagging rear ends from weight says a lot.

 

[rruff]

Half tons drive like trash when loaded up with the normal load for a couple or family for multiday vehicle based camping unless you spend a ton of money modifying the suspension to essentially carry 3/4 ton truck loads....Ram or Ford HD truck with a mild Carli or Thuren setup on 37s will be significantly more comfortable and capable than any half ton on 35s and get the same or better fuel mileage.

If by "a ton" you mean $2,000 for shocks and rear leafs, that's probably a fair estimate. But that will perform better than a stock 3/4 ton too. And I don't know why you think an upgraded suspension on a 3/4 ton would make it "significantly more comfortable and capable" than a 1/2 ton that has been upgraded, unless it's the tire size... but I can fit 37s also... and I'm pretty sure I have as much rear axle clearance even with 35s, and more in the front. And the 3/4 isn't going to get better MPG.

One negative of the 3/4 is the ~3" taller chassis and CG.

The amount of half tons I see up here in Montana during hunting season with sagging rear ends from weight says a lot.

Stock 1/2 tons in the US are designed for a soft ride when empty, because most of them are used for car duty and little else. You need to upgrade them if you wish to haul loads well.

 

[Bayou Boy]

If by "a ton" you mean $2,000 for shocks and rear leafs, that's probably a fair estimate. But that will perform better than a stock 3/4 ton too. And I don't know why you think an upgraded suspension on a 3/4 ton would make it "significantly more comfortable and capable" than a 1/2 ton that has been upgraded, unless it's the tire size... but I can fit 37s also... and I'm pretty sure I have as much rear axle clearance even with 35s, and more in the front. And the 3/4 isn't going to get better MPG.

One negative of the 3/4 is the ~3" taller chassis and CG.


Stock 1/2 tons in the US are designed for a soft ride when empty, because most of them are used for car duty and little else. You need to upgrade them if you wish to haul loads well.

Have you ever owned a late model HD truck? Taken a ride in one with a mild Thuren or Carli system?

I spent a ton of money on suspension trying to make both the half ton and PW work for my family of 4 and simply realized neither worked as well anywhere, even the highway as a real HD platform. I see that time and time again from people that went from HD to half tons. The vast majority go back.

My point is that people should consider them with eyes open and not these suppositions.

 

[p nut]

F150s with that much weight capacity are stripped regular cabs I’m pretty sure. That’s not really applicable to this discussion. Most crew cab 4wds are in the 1200-1700# range.

That gets eaten up very quickly from my experience, especially once people put LT tires, toppers, etc on the truck. The amount of half tons I see up here in Montana during hunting season with sagging rear ends from weight says a lot.

No, regular cabs can get up over 3k lbs.
I’m talking about SuperCrew 4wd’s. What dealers sell 90% of the time. None are near 1,200lbs, unless you’re talking about Raptors. Even those are more like 1,500. Lots in the 2-2,900lbs (ones in the upper part of that range have the hd payload package).

 

[rruff]

Have you ever owned a late model HD truck? Taken a ride in one with a mild Thuren or Carli system?

No, I did drive GM and Ford 3/4s before I bought the Tundra, but so little can be gleaned from that. We'd really need to optimize both for a particular load, price point, and performance, and do side by side comparisons on road and off.

I'm quite happy with my truck's performance, but I think if I was buying now, I wouldn't get a new Tundra or any 1/2 ton. I'd favor a C&C F450 for the better turning radius.

 

[Gravelette]

No, regular cabs can get up over 3k lbs.
I’m talking about SuperCrew 4wd’s. What dealers sell 90% of the time. None are near 1,200lbs, unless you’re talking about Raptors. Even those are more like 1,500. Lots in the 2-2,900lbs (ones in the upper part of that range have the hd payload package).

I don't think they've had the HDPP option for several years. My lightly optioned SC XLT was only 1300#. I don't think you'll find many 4X4 SCs on dealer lots with 2000# payload.