RG&B Soft Shackle review
- Thread starter Fivespddisco
- Start date
Fivespddisco
Supporting Sponsor
The soft shackle is more than just a hunk of rope. There is actually a little bit of science behind what appears to be a simple loop. The shackle is first made by splicing the rope and stitching it so the eye can only open far enough to allow the ball end through. Then it is stretched on a tensile tester to the Working Load Limit. This will set the knot end and prevent it from becoming untied. For added protection the shackle is then re-dipped in a polyurethane coating and a piece of nylon chafe guarding is added.
The 9mm ones that Lucky8 sells have been tested on a 50,000lb tensile tester. This machine is calibrated by a third party every year, in part because the manufacturer must keep its test equipment up to date to comply with their military contracts.
The 9mm soft shackle is rated for a Working Load Limit of 18,000lbs. Today I had a brand new soft shackle tested and it broke at 26,088lbs. That is like hanging more than another Land Rover off the shackle past its Working Load Limit.
One thing to keep in mind with these shackles or any synthetic winch line is that they do have a shelf life. The manufacturer did a simulated long-term test of the shackle and these were the results:
First it was cycled 200 times from 14,000lbs - 20,000lbs. No damage. This should be close to the maximum pulling power of a 9k winch connected to a snatch block.
Then they upped the pulling power and kept on going. It took 73 cycles in the 20,000lb - 25,000lb range for the shackle to finally break at 25,182lbs. Keep in mind that the shackle was not allowed to cool down after each test as it was cycled continuously to test its durability in being loaded and unloaded repeatedly.
Here is some quick math:
If you were to go out twice a month and use the shackle at its maximum rating twice each outing, it would take you just shy of 6 years to mimic our testing. Not bad for a $25 shackle.
video of todays test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ilXrijq1A&list=UUUnCLXtAqip_9qd-T1NenbA&index=1&feature=plcp
Todays test
I hope this helps put to rest some of the concerns that some people have had.
The 9mm ones that Lucky8 sells have been tested on a 50,000lb tensile tester. This machine is calibrated by a third party every year, in part because the manufacturer must keep its test equipment up to date to comply with their military contracts.
The 9mm soft shackle is rated for a Working Load Limit of 18,000lbs. Today I had a brand new soft shackle tested and it broke at 26,088lbs. That is like hanging more than another Land Rover off the shackle past its Working Load Limit.
One thing to keep in mind with these shackles or any synthetic winch line is that they do have a shelf life. The manufacturer did a simulated long-term test of the shackle and these were the results:
First it was cycled 200 times from 14,000lbs - 20,000lbs. No damage. This should be close to the maximum pulling power of a 9k winch connected to a snatch block.
Then they upped the pulling power and kept on going. It took 73 cycles in the 20,000lb - 25,000lb range for the shackle to finally break at 25,182lbs. Keep in mind that the shackle was not allowed to cool down after each test as it was cycled continuously to test its durability in being loaded and unloaded repeatedly.
Here is some quick math:
If you were to go out twice a month and use the shackle at its maximum rating twice each outing, it would take you just shy of 6 years to mimic our testing. Not bad for a $25 shackle.
video of todays test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ilXrijq1A&list=UUUnCLXtAqip_9qd-T1NenbA&index=1&feature=plcp
Todays test
I hope this helps put to rest some of the concerns that some people have had.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
There are two important considerations with rope shackles that I think a lot of people don't realize:
- Their load capacity is, in large part, dependent on what they are attached to which isn't the case when the same material is used as a well designed winch line in a straight line pull.
- Their capacity is reduced even further if subjected to shock loading such as during a dynamic recovery.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
No, you're not wrong. A rope would have a lower capacity looped around a .5" pin vs. a 3" pin.
That's why well made winch lines use thimbles, to maintain a correct bend radius at the hook attachment point.
I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
Justin,
Got the email ad about the soft shackle today. Thanks!!!!!!:Wow1: That's some advertising genius for sure!
Got the email ad about the soft shackle today. Thanks!!!!!!:Wow1: That's some advertising genius for sure!
Fivespddisco
Supporting Sponsor
Tom,
After reading your replies on all the boards you felt compelled to post on after me, it sounded like you have two issues with these shackles and I will address them.
Issue one
You disagree with the industry standard of synthetic winch line.
I understand your concern about the rating but you are comparing apples to oranges or more like apples to bananas.
You are comparing one industry standard to another. The standard for hoisting is different than the standard on synthetic winch line. These shackles are made of synthetic rope and the manufacturer that produces these shackles uses the same standard as synthetic winch line. The standard is to rate the rope at its breaking point.
There is no fluff. If you have a synthetic winch line and the rating is 16,000lbs, that rope, in perfect condition, will break at 16,000lbs. I asked the manufacturer to derate the shackle so that when used properly, it will break at 26,000lbs as shown in the video.
Quick math, these shackles are derated 8k less than the industry standard would allow.
Keep in mind a manufacturer is in control of rating their own products. The reason I used this manufacturer is because they test the parts we buy from them and do not just use the number given to them from the rope vendor.
But if you are on a crusade to change industry standards, then please, by all means, help me out with this.
I disagree with the tire manufacturers rating. When I use my tires off-road I do not get anywhere near the distance stated by the manufacturer. They wear out much faster then the mileage chart says.
Perhaps you can call Nitto and explain to them that they're incorrect with the way they rate their tires. In my opinion they should be rated for no more than 5000 miles. Disregard that I do not maintain my tires, mistreat them constantly, run them low on air, and never balance them. Therefore I've used them in the matter that I like and they don't last as long, so the manufacturer is incorrect with their rating. This is the same logic you are using with these shackles.
And while your at it, please call the FDA and tell them that all the food manufacturers need to adjust the portion chart. 17 Doritos is not a portion for me and Erik drops more then 17 eating his portion.
Side note:
These same shackles are sold at the full 26k rating to a very large consumer and all they wanted was to have the testing done to prove their strength.
Issue 2:
You feel the people using this shackle should be protected against misuse.
Simply put, if you do not know what you are doing in a recovery, then take a class and ask for help or don't do it! You can get killed or seriously hurt.
But for arguments sake, I will go down this road with you.
These shackles are tools, just like a screwdriver. Most people know the proper way to use a screwdriver but I have seen people hit the screwdriver with a hammer. If the screwdriver breaks, it is not a failure of the screwdriver, it is a failure by the user because the tool was used incorrectly. Using your logic related to the soft shackles, the screwdriver should be rated or designed for misuse.
I can go down this road of misuse forever with examples but I think you get my point. If you misuse the tool, it can brake and you can get hurt.
You said you want to know the weakest link in your set up.
Here are some things to look for before the shackle.
What is the winch mounted with? The grad 3 or 5 bolts it comes with?
Will the winch handle the load you intend to put on it?
What did you mount the winch to? And how is that attached?
Did you reuse the stock butter bolts that came from the factory? You may laugh but D90s came with a winch bumper and they used the same cheap butter bolts to hold that bumper to the frame. And lets not even bring up that abortion that came on the front of D2s and Lr3's
Next is the frame. It will twist and bend under load from winching.
You said the frame is rated for 30,000 lbs . Do you have any data on this ? I will disagree because I have bent a disco frame winching to the side.
From the winch out
What is the line rated for?
What is hook on the end of the line rated for?
Don't forget that cheap bolt they use to hold the hook to the line
And finally that Injustice of epic plague proportions that I have brought upon the land rover community the “ soft shackle” Derated to 18k when used properly
Here is another video of one breaking using a smaller radius. It broke at 26,058 just a few pounds less then the other test on the larger radius.
AND for everyone else that dose not care about this we have a few special features added to video that will make it worth watching. Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Q3gi19YJg&list=UUUnCLXtAqip_9qd-T1NenbA&index=1&feature=plcp
After reading your replies on all the boards you felt compelled to post on after me, it sounded like you have two issues with these shackles and I will address them.
Issue one
You disagree with the industry standard of synthetic winch line.
I understand your concern about the rating but you are comparing apples to oranges or more like apples to bananas.
You are comparing one industry standard to another. The standard for hoisting is different than the standard on synthetic winch line. These shackles are made of synthetic rope and the manufacturer that produces these shackles uses the same standard as synthetic winch line. The standard is to rate the rope at its breaking point.
There is no fluff. If you have a synthetic winch line and the rating is 16,000lbs, that rope, in perfect condition, will break at 16,000lbs. I asked the manufacturer to derate the shackle so that when used properly, it will break at 26,000lbs as shown in the video.
Quick math, these shackles are derated 8k less than the industry standard would allow.
Keep in mind a manufacturer is in control of rating their own products. The reason I used this manufacturer is because they test the parts we buy from them and do not just use the number given to them from the rope vendor.
But if you are on a crusade to change industry standards, then please, by all means, help me out with this.
I disagree with the tire manufacturers rating. When I use my tires off-road I do not get anywhere near the distance stated by the manufacturer. They wear out much faster then the mileage chart says.
Perhaps you can call Nitto and explain to them that they're incorrect with the way they rate their tires. In my opinion they should be rated for no more than 5000 miles. Disregard that I do not maintain my tires, mistreat them constantly, run them low on air, and never balance them. Therefore I've used them in the matter that I like and they don't last as long, so the manufacturer is incorrect with their rating. This is the same logic you are using with these shackles.
And while your at it, please call the FDA and tell them that all the food manufacturers need to adjust the portion chart. 17 Doritos is not a portion for me and Erik drops more then 17 eating his portion.
Side note:
These same shackles are sold at the full 26k rating to a very large consumer and all they wanted was to have the testing done to prove their strength.
Issue 2:
You feel the people using this shackle should be protected against misuse.
Simply put, if you do not know what you are doing in a recovery, then take a class and ask for help or don't do it! You can get killed or seriously hurt.
But for arguments sake, I will go down this road with you.
These shackles are tools, just like a screwdriver. Most people know the proper way to use a screwdriver but I have seen people hit the screwdriver with a hammer. If the screwdriver breaks, it is not a failure of the screwdriver, it is a failure by the user because the tool was used incorrectly. Using your logic related to the soft shackles, the screwdriver should be rated or designed for misuse.
I can go down this road of misuse forever with examples but I think you get my point. If you misuse the tool, it can brake and you can get hurt.
You said you want to know the weakest link in your set up.
Here are some things to look for before the shackle.
What is the winch mounted with? The grad 3 or 5 bolts it comes with?
Will the winch handle the load you intend to put on it?
What did you mount the winch to? And how is that attached?
Did you reuse the stock butter bolts that came from the factory? You may laugh but D90s came with a winch bumper and they used the same cheap butter bolts to hold that bumper to the frame. And lets not even bring up that abortion that came on the front of D2s and Lr3's
Next is the frame. It will twist and bend under load from winching.
You said the frame is rated for 30,000 lbs . Do you have any data on this ? I will disagree because I have bent a disco frame winching to the side.
From the winch out
What is the line rated for?
What is hook on the end of the line rated for?
Don't forget that cheap bolt they use to hold the hook to the line
And finally that Injustice of epic plague proportions that I have brought upon the land rover community the “ soft shackle” Derated to 18k when used properly
Here is another video of one breaking using a smaller radius. It broke at 26,058 just a few pounds less then the other test on the larger radius.
AND for everyone else that dose not care about this we have a few special features added to video that will make it worth watching. Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2Q3gi19YJg&list=UUUnCLXtAqip_9qd-T1NenbA&index=1&feature=plcp
Fivespddisco
Supporting Sponsor
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
I have no idea how you reached these two conclusions because I never said, nor implied, either one.FIVESPDDISCO said:
It's not about winch line vs. hoisting standards. Rope, no matter what it's made of, is covered by different standards than tools you make from the same rope. Shackles are covered by yet a different standard.
I was trying to figure out how to reply to the tires, screwdrivers and other stuff, but the analogies and conclusions are so nonsensical I won't bother.
Red90
Adventurer
Maybe we wander off topic a bit... But anyway as the topic of recovery gear strength is here...
This is just my opinion. The recovery gear used is a system and the design of that system to allow safe use when used properly by trained operators is important. I personally use these guidelines.
1) The rope should be sized to have a minimum test break strength of twice the stall load of the winch. This gives reasonable safety factor for usage to allow for low cycle fatigue (for a reasonable winch rope life), mild abrasion and de-rations due to bend radius and such.
2) All metal rigging hardware and attachment points to be designed for a breaking point at least 4 times the stall rating of the winch. With these soft, light shackles, I would guess having a rating a little higher than the rope should be fine.
The idea here is that the rope will always break first. As it is light, the amount of dangerous energy in the flying objects will be low. The most dangerous things I've seen in a recovery failure are when the attachment points break and the steel shackle flies.
This is just my opinion. The recovery gear used is a system and the design of that system to allow safe use when used properly by trained operators is important. I personally use these guidelines.
1) The rope should be sized to have a minimum test break strength of twice the stall load of the winch. This gives reasonable safety factor for usage to allow for low cycle fatigue (for a reasonable winch rope life), mild abrasion and de-rations due to bend radius and such.
2) All metal rigging hardware and attachment points to be designed for a breaking point at least 4 times the stall rating of the winch. With these soft, light shackles, I would guess having a rating a little higher than the rope should be fine.
The idea here is that the rope will always break first. As it is light, the amount of dangerous energy in the flying objects will be low. The most dangerous things I've seen in a recovery failure are when the attachment points break and the steel shackle flies.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
I don't think you're really off topic. Safety should nearly always be primary.
Everything I use has a rating a good deal higher than the stall load on my electric winches, up to my shackles which are almost 5 times the winch capacity.
My only concern with the soft shackle is that it's not made clear to people about its design factor. IMO, people should have the information, then be left to decide for themselves if they don't understand or care.
My concern is that people are used to the word "shackle" meaning a chunk of steel with a 3:1 or 5:1 design factor and that people may decide to use the soft shackle thinking it has the same rating, when in fact it's design factor is less than 1.5:1.
Fivespddisco
Supporting Sponsor
antichrist said:
These quotes of yours bellow is how I arrived at that conclusion.
Discoweb post 59antichrist said:
Discoweb post 31antichrist said:
Discoweb post 52antichrist said:
Discoweb post 52antichrist said:
Discoweb post 54antichrist said:
Discoweb post 59antichrist said:
After reading your recent post on Expo Portal it seems your major issue with the product is the name.
Expeditionportal post 13antichrist said:
I posted a video of the "Sha..." Product being tested. You said it would fail much faster if we used a smaller radius. So I put up another video of it being tested on a smaller radius and it failed with in a few pounds of the original. I have one more video of the product. This time it is being used on a very tight bend and according to you it should fail well below it rating.
It did not.
On D-90 I posted that you were busting by balls and that offended you. I am sorry for that. I was only trying to make light of you following behind my posts on many of the Land Rover sites question this product.
Again I am sorry you do not like the name, how the manufacture rates them or how people may misuse them. But in my book those are opinions and not fact.
Fivespddisco
Supporting Sponsor
9MM Soft Shackle: 24,343 LBS
Connected to Tensile Tester with 3/8" Dyneema line one side and a industry standard (Superwinch) snatch block on the other side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3vMa4Rmlds&list=UUUnCLXtAqip_9qd-T1NenbA&index=1&feature=plcp
Connected to Tensile Tester with 3/8" Dyneema line one side and a industry standard (Superwinch) snatch block on the other side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3vMa4Rmlds&list=UUUnCLXtAqip_9qd-T1NenbA&index=1&feature=plcp
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